Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Sean]

(Luk 18:12)I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.


Spoken about a PHARISEE that was still UNDER THE LAW!

[Sean]

To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Now let us look at the context of Heb. 7......keep an eye on the bold print.....
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

It clearly states that tithing is of the LAW OF MOSES!

6 but he whose descent(Melchisedek had descendants) is not counted to them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
[COLOR="red"]

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. 8 And here men that die receive tithes;(Jewish priests under the LAW) but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. 9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect,


NINE times, the word tithe or tenth is used. The exegesis of the passage here is about the TITHE, and what has become of it. This passage is the telling us that the tithe, which is of the Law, has been DISANULLED.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Agreed. It us amazing how some wrest the scriptures to set aside everything in the Law and yet keep tithing, albeit while ignoring EVERY SINGLE Old Testament command and instruction about what to do with the tithe.

You can't find one place in the New Testament where peace offerings are taught AGAINST. What's your point?

Yes tithing is mentioned 7 times in the NT, you say never in a negative light. That is arguable. Im not so sure the parable if the self righteous pharisee is "positive". Hiwver positive/negative doesn't really matter, what does is tithing is always mentioned in relation to the Old Covenant. Never is it mentioned to New Covenant believers, nor are we given any instructions on how to collect tithes without a Temple, Levitical priesthood, or when the tithe changed to "money, money, money....moneyyyy".

Furthermore not only does the NT know nothing of tithing but neither does early church history. In fact you've got to get 250 years past Nicea before you even see the issue come up at the Council if Tours which wasn't even an ecumenical council.
Tithing in the New covenant has no precedent in scripture no early church history.

Bro. Jason, I understand your argument, however, you have not addressed the majority of my post......you are a scholarly young man, and even though I strongly disagree with the direction you have taken doctrinally (based on what I have read on this forum) I value your writings and enjoy discussions from time to time. That said.....again you have ignored the greater part of my post. The fact remains that if tithe was originally a tenth (which it was) and if tithes were given under the law, then the church should be more generous NOT less. (I have read some of your posts about tithing and I know that YOU believe in giving abundantly not sparingly/grudgingly, however that is NOT my experience with MOST who hold your opinion.)

I do believe that the early church had the law as a precedent and therefore because they were a tithing culture/people giving was probably a non-issue to them. Because of their strong "law" based giving structure the "freewill" offerings were most likely MORE than a tithe not less. Remember the early church was a Judaeo church and the influence of their Judaism was palpable for many years......I assure you it did influence their giving as well.

Regardless of our differences my friend, my main objective in entering this discussion was to point out the judgmental and pompous spirit and attitude that was being spewed out by our friend Sean on this topic. To wish and even pray for pastors and leaders to die because they teach something that you feel is in error is NOT the spirit of Christ. When the disciples saw some not of their persuasion casting out devils in the name of Christ....they forbid them and rebuked them.....Jesus let them know they had the wrong spirit and just a few verses later they wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy folks who rejected Jesus....yet Jesus rebuked them because they "knew not what spirit they were of." Such diatribe makes it easy for one to say then his teaching must be in error as well, because he says God has told him this and made this MORE IMPORTANT than winning souls and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is NOTHING more important to God than saving the lost......it was/is so important that he robed himself in flesh and died to redeem man from the curse. But NOW correcting the tithe teaching pastors is MORE important.....PLEASE.

[Sean]

(Sean says that God HATES those who teach tithing but can't show a single scripture to support his hypothesis......


Here it is Bishop....Prov 6:19 ...God hates... a false witness that speaketh lies,

Tithing is a blatant lie(for the N.T. church), that has its roots in Catholicism.

[Esaias]

People teaching that you must give 10% of your weekly paycheck aren't teaching Biblical tithing to begin with.

Interestingly, the Didache says a preacher who asks for money is to be rejected.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I am fairly certain that the responses will be something along the lines of....these are NOT scriptures commanding tithing in the NT......I was very clear in my comments that tithing (not a command to tithe) was mentioned 7 times in the NT with none of them being in a negative light.

Since you admit these scriptures are not a command to tithe your argument to tithe is self defeating.

Brother, You simply built a strawman and knocked it down. Bravo.
No one denies tithing is mentioned in the New Testament, so is the Sabbath, the sacrificial system, the tabernacle, the feasts, and essentially every other element of the Law, as well as many OT stories, and some extra biblical things (such as the book of Enoch).

You're building an argument on straw.

Originally Posted by bishoph

The point that I am making is that those of you who believe that NT tithing is null and void do so from an argument of silence....in other words because there is no NT commandment to tithe then it simply was never done. That argument is extremely weak.

Hardly. First we have to understand the message of scripture. When we understand the message of scripture then we understand the purpose of the law. You don't abide by the sacrificial system, but it is MENTIONED in the NT. You don't keep the Sabbath, but it is MENTIONED in the NT. I don't know about you (and don't feel obligated to share), but I know there are believers who are not circumcised, and it is MENTIONED in the NT. But we understand all of these things in relation to the New Covenant, which is in fact a NEW COVENANT as Hebrews makes clear. We do not need to be told as believers we are freed from keeping all 613 laws, because we are told that the basis of our faith IS faith. Our righteousness is HIS righteousness. Christ is the end of the law to all who believe. We are not redeemed by corruptible things such as silver and gold, but by the precious blood of Christ. We are bought with a price (His blood) our tithing profits us nothing in the way of salvation, we neither "keep" salvation through tithing, nor "lose" salvation because we don't tithe. There are actually mounds of scripture not just in relation to tithing, but about grace, justification, and imputed righteousness that are also relevant to this discussion.

Furthermore there are many positive commands about giving in the New Testament and NONE instruct believers to tithe. In fact while the Bible doesn't say "don't tithe" or "quit tithing", the very principles Paul lays out in 2 Corinthians 8 & 9 should be enough to prove tithing wasn't expected or required of NT saints. We are told not to give according to pressure or compulsion, to give what we purpose in our own hearts, and to give according to what we have, not according to what we do not have. We are told that if we don't provide for our own households we are worse than infidels (thus the argument can be made you take care of your own family first BEFORE giving money to the local church, a position tithing advocates can't stand--they say go without groceries, electricity, or a car, and "trust God to provide" but pay your tithes--that is a egregious manipulation).

In relation to this Jesus also spoke negatively of the use of Korban, which would be the ancient equivalent to setting aside money to give to a church while your family goes without. Sure, an argument from silence.

Originally Posted by bishoph

In fact, that same argument can be made by the other side....since there is NO mention in the NT of an abolishment of tithing, then it could certainly still be in place.

The NT doesn't need to abolish tithing since it never established tithing. All the apostles were Jewish, and understood the tithing system. It required Levitical priests. It required a Temple, and the Feasts. It was to be given by Jews of the land of Israel, specifically those who made their living for the land (can you show where any of the apostles-Peter, Andrew, James, John, etc gave tithes?). The Gentiles would no more "tithe" to the Levitical priesthood than we Americans would pay taxes to Brazil. It didn't have to be abolished for New Covenant believers because it never applied to them in the first place.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Furthermore, IME (in my experience) most non-tithers that I have met, do so from a spirit of greed and while they won't sow financially to support the work of God, they will without hesitation sow discord to bring disunity to the body.

In my experience most who benefit from the tithe want absolutely nothing to do with a real Biblical discussion about the tithe. Its easy to point a finger at a brother and say they sow discord because they attacked one of your most sacred cows. Some of you guys bring disunity by making tithing a requirement of leadership. Show me where that is in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1. Ya'll paint anyone who doesn't believe in tithing as rebellious, or "greedy".

You can tithe and still be greedy. Greed like pride is a condition of the heart. How many tithes write their check out $54.03. And then don't give a cent more? They've discharged their duty. They've lined up. They're good to be on the platform this Sunday. Yet in their heart they are greedy. I'm not saying all tithers are greedy nor saying that some who do not tithe, don't tithe out of greed. But this is just a poor argument, and really its sinful. Its to impugn someones motives and judge their heart.

Originally Posted by bishoph

(Sean says that God HATES those who teach tithing but can't show a single scripture to support his hypothesis......I have scripture that say God HATES those who sow discord among the brethren! Prov. 6:19)

And Sean's rhetoric on this thread has been endorsed by no one.

Originally Posted by bishoph

I believe that Jesus stated that unless our righteousness EXCEED that of the of the scribes and Pharisees that we would not inherit the kingdom of God. If the scribes and Pharisees gave a tithe (a tenth) under the law, we should not have an issue with giving that and more to the kingdom.

THIS right here says so much. This is the whole subconscious mindset of the legalist. We must DO. Our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, therefore whatever the Pharisees did, I must do MORE or BETTER so I am more righteous than them. No, a thousand times no. This is works based salvation. Only here it touches tithing, but the mindset behind it is "I HAVE TO work myself to heaven. I HAVE TO be better than the Pharisees."

It has nothing to do with the Pharisees gave 10%, then bless God we'd better give 11%, cause if we only give 9% our righteousness will not exceed the pharisees and we'll be lost.

That wasn't even what Jesus was talking about at all. the pharisees righteousness was all for show. It was superficial. Jesus calls us to sincerity of heart and to trust in Him. It has nothing to do with measuring ourselves against the Pharisees. Our righteousness is the imputed righteousness of Christ, what can we add to that? And does that not far exceed the pseudo-righteousness of the pharisees?

Originally Posted by bishoph

The NT standard for giving is he that sows sparingly reaps sparingly and he that sows bountifully reaps bountifully....

EXACTLY!
Thus the man who gives 10% but could really easily give 25% will be blessed only sparingly for he sows sparingly.

The man who gives 3% and that is the threshold for what he can do will be blessed bountifully.

But notice the NT teaching, there is NO CURSE. Its a blessing for ALL who give, but you will be blessed in proportion to what you give. Some people will hold back, and they will be reap, but sparingly. Some people will give above what they are able, abundantly will blessed abundantly for it. But there is no curse. Money is not tied to salvation anywhere in the NT, nor a percentage. The only thing we are told is that the GREEDY will not inherit the Kingdom of God-which can just as easily apply to tithers as non tithers.

Originally Posted by bishoph

again IME most non-tithers sow sparingly

I'm not going to get into what I give, but its probably not 10%. I don't know because I don't keep track. I in all kinds of ways. But I'll just say this. Since I quit tithing and began freewill giving and helped people who I came across who were in need and I had the ability to help them my income has at least quadrupled, maybe more than that. I am abundantly blessed. The curse hasn't come. Nor the doom and gloom.

Originally Posted by bishoph

If you have to give tithe out of fear, you might as well keep it anyway.....

Right....so some preach as they pound the pulpit and talk about those thieves and robbers going to hell.

"You're gonna split hell wide open if you don't pay your tithes!!!! You'll burn forever!!!! Oh by the way, don't pay them out of fear., you may as well keep them in that case." Pffft. Whatever.

Originally Posted by bishoph

give it cheerfully and give as much as you can and God will bless you.

This is true, regardless of the %.

[Sean]

Bishop, do you think that Peter and Paul had the attitude, regarding false teachers, that they should just "agree to disagree"?

Do you think the Apostles just said, regarding false teachers..."to each his own"?

You want us to just leave you alone with this doctrine, even though it is not a N.T. doctrine?

I have news for you....the information age is here. You guys cant keep us in fear of you and in a "dark age" mentality with "pope-ish" threats anymore.(the Lord WILL NOT hear your prayers against his church regarding any false doctrine) The next generation will end this doctrine and you guys will go down in the "hall of shame" when everyone exposes this false concept to each other. The saints will look back and say these forefathers "duped" the world and the church, and were still stuck in the "reformation".

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Bro. Jason, I understand your argument, however, you have not addressed the majority of my post......you are a scholarly young man, and even though I strongly disagree with the direction you have taken doctrinally (based on what I have read on this forum) I value your writings and enjoy discussions from time to time. That said.....again you have ignored the greater part of my post.

Thank you. I think I answered in my long post.

Originally Posted by bishoph

The fact remains that if tithe was originally a tenth (which it was) and if tithes were given under the law, then the church should be more generous NOT less.

See my comments above. This philosophy is damaging.

Originally Posted by bishoph

I do believe that the early church had the law as a precedent and therefore because they were a tithing culture/people giving was probably a non-issue to them.

I agree taht the Jewish chruch had the law as a precedent and tithing propbably wasn't an issue to them. In fact we know that Jewish Christians still participated in the Jewish Feasts (thus we can assume they brought agricultural tithes) and continued to observe Judaism until the fall of the 2nd Temple.

However, it is a real stretch to assume this extended beyond the borders of Israel or outside of cultural Judaism. There is NO proof that the early Gentile church did anything except for take up a collection and then provide for the needy with that collection. They had no need to "tithe" because they didn't have buildings (meeting in homes will keep the overhead down), didn't have A/C, pews to buy, or sound systems, didn't have professional ministry (even in Jewish culture it was a shame for a Levite NOT to have a trade-this whole full time priest/pastor idea has a lot more to do with paganism that Judaism or Biblical Christianity), thus for those reasons and more the Gentile churches had no need to tithe. If my information is wrong pelase correct me. I've read David Bernards History of Christian Doctrine (all 3 volumes, twice-he pretty much avoids the doctrine of tithing all together), Lattourette's History of Christianity, he says tithing didn't become universally accepted until well after the Catholic institution was established and it was taken out of the OT to support the number of priests and upkeep of the buildings. I'm reading Schaff's History of the Christian church, I'm in the 3rd volume (4th century) and thus far churches only took up freewill offerings, and in reading F.F. Bruce's New Testament History in which he focused primarily on the 1st century for over 500 pages, nothing about tithing in the churches.

I've studied and am still studying, but your argument here is just trying to connect imaginary dots. Just because the apostles were Jewish doesn't mean they didn't understand that the tithe was for the people of Israel to support the Levitical priesthood, and NOT for the Gentiles, in fact they would have understood this quite clearly.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Because of their strong "law" based giving structure the "freewill" offerings were most likely MORE than a tithe not less. Remember the early church was a Judaeo church

Actually the early church was made up of many economically challenged classes, especially women (most who weren't allowed to work unless they worked as a harlot) and slaves.

See here's a major point. If tithing is a requirement, then it is a requirement for all believers of all times, regardless of culture, economic situation, etc. If you get a dollar, you give a time, and it doesn't matter if you live in an affluent nation or a third world country. Not only is that not biblical, its not logical. In Israel God controlled the nation. He sent the blessing and He withheld the blessing. As His people were obedient to Him he blessed them, when they weren't He chastened them. So the tithe made sense for the Jewish people (again only those who made their living off agriculture had to tithe, no record of fisherman, carpenters, or blacksmiths tithing).

However as the gospel goes out to the Gentile nation there are going to be different cicumstances. There are going to be times of war, famine, dictatorships, the rise of Islam and its oppressive taxes. Communism. All the horrors of the world. Starvation, extreme poverty. If tithing is Biblical and required of believers, it is required no matter what. Thats not what we see in history, its not what we see right now. Tithing ONLY "works" as a universal law for all believers in a culture such as ours.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Regardless of our differences my friend, my main objective in entering this discussion was to point out the judgmental and pompous spirit and attitude that was being spewed out by our friend Sean on this topic. To wish and even pray for pastors and leaders to die because they teach something that you feel is in error is NOT the spirit of Christ. When the disciples saw some not of their persuasion casting out devils in the name of Christ....they forbid them and rebuked them.....Jesus let them know they had the wrong spirit and just a few verses later they wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy folks who rejected Jesus....yet Jesus rebuked them because they "knew not what spirit they were of." Such diatribe makes it easy for one to say then his teaching must be in error as well, because he says God has told him this and made this MORE IMPORTANT than winning souls and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

[Michael The Disciple]

I was one of the first on the internet on Apostolic forums to come out against the doctrine of tithing. I still believe it was done away as part of the law. Yet for saints who pay tithes because they want to I respect that as long as they don't teach it as a part of the New Covenant.

What is stunning to me is how strong some are against tithing and yet approve and condone such practices as celebrating Christmas. Something that can be easily researched by way of internet.

It would be interesting to see how the strong attackers of tithing stand about Christmas. Do they take offence to the fact that men have made up a holiday and put Jesus into it fully apart from any direction of the Lord?

[Esaias]

Christmas is pagan and God hates it.

"Tithe teachers" don't teach Biblical tithing, they have invented something not found in the Bible and passed it off as "tithing". Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Albeit many do so out of ignorance because they don't know what the Law of the tithe actually was anyway.