The idea that apostolics don't preach the cross is ridiculous. What is really being said is that apostolics don't preach a particular view of salvation, a particular view of the gospel.
It's no different than when Calvinists accuse everyone else of not believing in or preaching 'grace', or when they accuse everyone else of preaching that man saves himself... all because those others don't subscribe to Calvin's pet theories.
The defense of Fudge is hilarious. They are ardent after him in the same way those who have felt anything DKB says is gospel. Same difference.
It reminds me of when I was a new convert, my pastor gave me In Search of Holiness to read.
When I got to the part that said, "By altering that color, the glory is lost. Jesus Himself assumed that people would not change the color of their hair (Matthew 5:36).
I commented to my pastor that Matthew 5:36 wasn't referencing hair dye, but simply that some things are not within our power to change. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. It was as though I spoke blasphemy against God Himself. LOL!
They are doing the same thing with Fudge - It's blasphemy to not agree with him! After all he has the credentials - that makes him right!!!
The idea that apostolics don't preach the cross is ridiculous. What is really being said is that apostolics don't preach a particular view of salvation, a particular view of the gospel.
It's no different than when Calvinists accuse everyone else of not believing in or preaching 'grace', or when they accuse everyone else of preaching that man saves himself... all because those others don't subscribe to Calvin's pet theories.
Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
The defense of Fudge is hilarious. They are ardent after him in the same way those who have felt anything DKB says is gospel. Same difference.
It reminds me of when I was a new convert, my pastor gave me In Search of Holiness to read.
When I got to the part that said, "By altering that color, the glory is lost. Jesus Himself assumed that people would not change the color of their hair (Matthew 5:36).
I commented to my pastor that Matthew 5:36 wasn't referencing hair dye, but simply that some things are not within our power to change. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. It was as though I spoke blasphemy against God Himself. LOL!
They are doing the same thing with Fudge - It's blasphemy to not agree with him! After all he has the credentials - that makes him right!!!
Whatever....
No one is asking you to agree with him, but so much of what is there is a matter of historical record, but you are so blind you can't get past the title.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
No one is asking you to agree with him, but so much of what is there is a matter of historical record, but you are so blind you can't get past the title.
Yes, everything is historical.
Just like Jefferson's letter to the Danbury group reflecting he wasn't a Deist, although history tries to paint him in that light.
You fellas can have the thread and the discussion. Im good with getting the history right. I think Fudge brought a needed voice to the discussion. However with all history, the story is told thru the bias of the historian. To suggest Fudge is somehow different from those inside that have told the story differently is silliness.
I am glad the book is part of the record. Ive read it. there is some good stuff in it. Certainly the UPCI is not perfect.
Im happy with my contribution here. Some of you guys I think are being honest. Others are just here (or in other places) to destroy. You have made it your mission in life to see the object of your disdane wrecked. Ive already said it but it is sad and small.
but you wont be disuaded by any reason or even by unreason so go for it. I suppose some day down the road we will see the fruit of our efforts.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
It is very arrogant and unfeeling to dismiss the abuse that others have experienced as inconsequential and unimportant.
It is also ironic that Ferd and others want everyone to move on yet they continue to bring up their own hurts regarding Dan Alicea from several years ago.
sorry dude. I havennt brought up any past hurts regarding your buddy dan.
I pointed out quite clearly that he is bitter and has spent the better part of the last few years focusing that bitterness on the UPCI.
that has nothing to do with any "past hurts". i dont even know what that means.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I am not UPCI and have little interest in the UPCI. I will say this. It appears to me that the UPCI was built on compromise from the beginning. In my opinion, the merger never should have happened..salvation is simply too big of an issue.
There are many wonderful men of God in the UPCI, however I could never be a part of an organization that is build on such shaky ground. Doubtless, it has done much for the Kingdom.
Oh really?!
What of the countless men and women who were PCI in doctrine who worked hand in hand with the PAJC brethren promoting the gospel?
The missionaries sent...the churches founded...the souls saved...
I'm not going to rehash this with you, as we have already discussed this at length. Except to say, Jefferson is recorded to have said, ""I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man,..."
A Deist does not believe that God is involved in the lives of His created. For Jefferson to acknowledge the "protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man", proves by his own words that historians cannot claim him to have been a Deist.
You brought out an atheist author to try and prove your point. Therefore, the larger point is that she may have had some historical points, Fudge may have some historical points, but no one is totally correct on everything they claim.
We look to the Word, and as Esaias has posted in another thread - "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)
Hence, we had a division, a split, it's over and everyone needs to move on.
I concur with Ferd, you can have this thread and discussion...
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