Ok, I don't know much about this local assembly, but something that's puzzling to me about this scenario (and this also applies to a lot of denominations) is the fact that there is not a mature believer (or mature believers) in that congregation that can help steer that local assembly under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit?
Why do we have "pastors" applying for church position? This idea of the professional pastor is really troubling.
If there are no mature believers in that congregation to lead the assembly, then what exactly has the pastor been teaching his flock all these years???
Paul's instructions about appointing overseers for the local assembly was choosing someone from within that local assembly...
Ofcourse, sometimes, the believers in newly established local assembly will be new in the faith, so they need someone who is already grounded in the faith to lead them.
But, eventually, the local assembly should have enough mature believers to function as church leadership.
We see that in Paul's ministry over and over again. He established local assemblies in places, left Timothy and/ Titus to take care of the place but eventually, they were to appoint overseers from within that local assembly.
But today, we have too many professional pastors who "apply for the job and get the offer..."
Our problem is far bigger than just scandals. Our pastors need to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. It's not enough to just attend "church" on Sunday and Wednesday to just keep hearing sermons over and over again.
In fact, Pastors should not be preaching all the time. Let your flock also teach (1 Cor 14). How do professional pastors even know if their flock is growing spiritually, when it's just hear a sermon every sunday and wednesday over and over again???
Man, we need the body ministry real bad...
Anyhow, carry on...just my musings...
__________________
...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
Ok, I don't know much about this local assembly, but something that's puzzling to me about this scenario (and this also applies to a lot of denominations) is the fact that there is not a mature believer (or mature believers) in that congregation that can help steer that local assembly under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit?
Why do we have "pastors" applying for church position? This idea of the professional pastor is really troubling.
If there are no mature believers in that congregation to lead the assembly, then what exactly has the pastor been teaching his flock all these years???
Paul's instructions about appointing overseers for the local assembly was choosing someone from within that local assembly...
Ofcourse, sometimes, the believers in newly established local assembly will be new in the faith, so they need someone who is already grounded in the faith to lead them.
But, eventually, the local assembly should have enough mature believers to function as church leadership.
We see that in Paul's ministry over and over again. He established local assemblies in places, left Timothy and/ Titus to take care of the place but eventually, they were to appoint overseers from within that local assembly.
But today, we have too many professional pastors who "apply for the job and get the offer..."
Our problem is far bigger than just scandals. Our pastors need to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. It's not enough to just attend "church" on Sunday and Wednesday to just keep hearing sermons over and over again.
In fact, Pastors should not be preaching all the time. Let your flock also teach (1 Cor 14). How do professional pastors even know if their flock is growing spiritually, when it's just hear a sermon every sunday and wednesday over and over again???
Ok, I don't know much about this local assembly, but something that's puzzling to me about this scenario (and this also applies to a lot of denominations) is the fact that there is not a mature believer (or mature believers) in that congregation that can help steer that local assembly under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit?
Why do we have "pastors" applying for church position? This idea of the professional pastor is really troubling.
If there are no mature believers in that congregation to lead the assembly, then what exactly has the pastor been teaching his flock all these years???
Paul's instructions about appointing overseers for the local assembly was choosing someone from within that local assembly...
Ofcourse, sometimes, the believers in newly established local assembly will be new in the faith, so they need someone who is already grounded in the faith to lead them.
But, eventually, the local assembly should have enough mature believers to function as church leadership.
We see that in Paul's ministry over and over again. He established local assemblies in places, left Timothy and/ Titus to take care of the place but eventually, they were to appoint overseers from within that local assembly.
But today, we have too many professional pastors who "apply for the job and get the offer..."
Our problem is far bigger than just scandals. Our pastors need to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. It's not enough to just attend "church" on Sunday and Wednesday to just keep hearing sermons over and over again.
In fact, Pastors should not be preaching all the time. Let your flock also teach (1 Cor 14). How do professional pastors even know if their flock is growing spiritually, when it's just hear a sermon every sunday and wednesday over and over again???
Man, we need the body ministry real bad...
Anyhow, carry on...just my musings...
The day we start pulling people out of the pews to preach will be a sad one for me. People have different giftings and the gift of communication is a special one not many people have.
I don't want to have to endure a terrible public speaker like 90% of people are to try and dig out the nuggets of the word of God. You are welcome to.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
The day we start pulling people out of the pews to preach will be a sad one for me. People have different giftings and the gift of communication is a special one not many people have.
I don't want to have to endure a terrible public speaker like 90% of people are to try and dig out the nuggets of the word of God. You are welcome to.
Ok, but the local assembly is not and should not be like a conference where we have a conference speaker and others just sit and listen.
1 Cor 14 says "everyone in the assembly can prophesy..." Fellowship should involve the participation of the entire body. So even a stammerer should be allowed to speak if he/she has something to share.
Public speaking is not a requirement in 1 Tim 3 or Titus 1 for an overseer. Being an orator is something that's magnified in the world. Church should not be about oratory skills, not even in the least bit.
And how do we know members in our congregation are growing in the knowledge of the word of God if they are not encouraged to share what they know in the assembly of the saints?
__________________
...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
Ok, but the local assembly is not and should not be like a conference where we have a conference speaker and others just sit and listen.
1 Cor 14 says "everyone in the assembly can prophesy..." Fellowship should involve the participation of the entire body. So even a stammerer should be allowed to speak if he/she has something to share.
Public speaking is not a requirement in 1 Tim 3 or Titus 1 for an overseer. Being an orator is something that's magnified in the world. Church should not be about oratory skills, not even in the least bit.
And how do we know members in our congregation are growing in the knowledge of the word of God if they are not encouraged to share what they know in the assembly of the saints?
Well if you have ever read the book Azusa Street, you would know that yes, SOMETIMES they would have people from the congregation stand up and address the congregation...HOWEVER...even in that kind of atmosphere, the people that spoke were led of the Spirit.
But as far as "choosing someone from the congregation" for a PASTOR SHIP? That is a bit much, sorry, but it just is.
Not everyone can be a pastor, it is a special calling and annointing that God puts on a person, but everyone can be one of Gods messangers or "preachers" in a way.
Jesus said: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
That does not mean that he meant everyone should have a shot at pastoring a church. He was speaking more of spreading the Gospel.
And for the record....yes.... I agree that there are a lot of saints that need to grow up spiritually and take their place in the church as a mature christian, but pastoring is a totally different story.
And just to get back on topic....how many people have tried out so far?
I think that "number" will grow in size...no matter if it is true or not! It looks better on paper! LOL!
Well if you have ever read the book Azusa Street, you would know that yes, SOMETIMES they would have people from the congregation stand up and address the congregation...HOWEVER...even in that kind of atmosphere, the people that spoke were led of the Spirit.
Azusa's decline if I may so say began with the one man show and if you don't see it like I see it, leave. That's what a one man show will always cause anyways.
Remember, the revival was not as a result of a man show, but a group of believers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
But as far as "choosing someone from the congregation" for a PASTOR SHIP? That is a bit much, sorry, but it just is.
A bit much?? Well, isn't the pastor applying for the job coming from a particular congregation? So it's okay to have the pastor come from another congregation but not the local one?
We are supposed to make disciples of Christ. If after like 5 or 10 years, the members of congregation cannot help lead the fellowship, wow! something's wrong somewhere.
In 2 Tim 2, Paul told Timothy to teach others who shall be able to teach others also.
2 Tim 2
1 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus,
2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men[a] who will be able to teach others also.
Something ain't right if after a good number of years, the flock is just expecting another human to come and keep speaking to them every sunday morning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
Not everyone can be a pastor, it is a special calling and annointing that God puts on a person, but everyone can be one of Gods messangers or "preachers" in a way.
What scripture do you have for this?
Matter of fact, Paul said "If a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing..."
So every man can function as an overseer. Of course, the qualifications laid out must also be met.
Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
Jesus said: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
That does not mean that he meant everyone should have a shot at pastoring a church. He was speaking more of spreading the Gospel.
Paul said anyone can aspire to be an overseer. They just have to meet the qualifications. 1 Tim 3
1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
And for the record....yes.... I agree that there are a lot of saints that need to grow up spiritually and take their place in the church as a mature christian, but pastoring is a totally different story.
But how can the pastor know his saints are even maturing if the saints don't get to share their insights of scripture in the local assembly?
Pastor is a totally different story only because we have unconsciously made it into a stardom
Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
And just to get back on topic....how many people have tried out so far?
I think that "number" will grow in size...no matter if it is true or not! It looks better on paper! LOL!
Biblically, trying out should be meeting the qualifications of 1 Tim 3 and then functioning in the capacity of overseer for a while to test them before they are then officially overseers
I am curious how these pastors try out for the position. They come and preach one sermon??
__________________
...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
Azusa's decline if I may so say began with the one man show and if you don't see it like I see it, leave. That's what a one man show will always cause anyways.
Sorry INCORRECT! Azusa decline did not have to do with a one man show at all! It had to do with the the church itself! Read the book! One man cannot STOP a move of God! I don't care if he is a pastor. If he stands in Gods way, then God has a way of removing him from the flock. No one is so powerful they cannot be removed. Nor should they be.
What you are doing is putting ALL men of God that are pastors into one little box that is your view of them. They must all be power grabbers.....that is simply a lie! A lot of pastors make sacrifices for their congregations and are not even given a thank you as a reward.
If you really think it is great for people from the congregation to get up and pastor the church because one man will so be totally stuck on power, I feel sorry for you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
Remember, the revival was not as a result of a man show, but a group of believers.
I never said it was! You are puttng words in my mouth! But if you would take time to read the book, you would ALSO know that some of the men that led that church, spent time in prayer for hours, sometimes days just to get a message to bring to the congregation. They did not sound like Power hungry people to me. And may I point out that the original church of Azusa never HAD a pastor! There WAS no official pastor but me WERE there that lead the congregation....they did not just close their eyes and pick someone out of the congregation to lead them! You would have known this if you would of read the book!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
A bit much?? Well, isn't the pastor applying for the job coming from a particular congregation? So it's okay to have the pastor come from another congregation but not the local one?
No it IS a bit much in the way you want it to happen! The person in question may be coming from another church, but usually that person has had time in the ministry. Not some saint that would not even know how to lead a congregation in prayer, much less handle any problems that came up with the church!! SO YES... it IS a bit much for what you are wanting. Face it, congregational people are NOT a perfect fit for a pastor. Can they do other things? Well of course they can. But what you are suggesting is crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
We are supposed to make disciples of Christ. If after like 5 or 10 years, the members of congregation cannot help lead the fellowship, wow! something's wrong somewhere.
And again, you seem to be missing a grand canyon of a POINT that there is a big difference in mature christians and a person called to lead the people of God. Two totally and completely seperate things. For one, there is a measure of responsibility that goes with being a pastor that would CRUSH most members of a church. Don't even TRY to lecture me on this point..I KNOW what goes on in a pastors home. Being a pastor is way more responsibility than eating fried chicken and visiting the sick! When you are a REAL pastor you feel a responsibility to the flock. Again, this is not about power grabbing, IF YOU ARE A REAL PASTOR....it is about being accountable to God for the people you are supposed to be leading and guiding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
In 2 Tim 2, Paul told Timothy to teach others who shall be able to teach others also.
2 Tim 2
1 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus,
2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men[a] who will be able to teach others also.
Something ain't right if after a good number of years, the flock is just expecting another human to come and keep speaking to them every sunday morning.
Something also is not right in the way you are interpeting that scriupture! In the first place, it was talking about making mature christians being able to be entrusted to different positions in the church.... but again....a pastorship is a whole different ballgame!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
What scripture do you have for this?
Matter of fact, Paul said "If a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing..."
So every man can function as an overseer. Of course, the qualifications laid out must also be met.
YES the QUALIFICATIONS are exactly what I am talking about.Mmost in a congregation are not even in the running for BEING a pastor.... so why don't we start with the scripture you are taking out of context? He goes into specific detail in that particular scripture about what is REQUIRED for that office! The fact is most members are not even trying out for that particular office and if some did and were not called, the burdens of being a pastor would crush them! Literally. Again, please don't lecture me on what it takes to be a pastor and that anyone can do it! NO! Anyone cannot!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
Paul said anyone can aspire to be an overseer. They just have to meet the qualifications. 1 Tim 3
1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Again, you are talking about two different things....those that are wanting be pastors .....and those like YOU want...to just "pick someone from the congregation" to fill this office....sorry, it is not that simple. Period!
First of all theres are not only meeting the qualifications of a pastor to be chosen of God, but you also have to be called of God in that area. There are a LOT and I mean a LOT of people thinking they should be preachers or pastors inpentecost today and are absolutely miserable in their positions.
That is not the will of God, it is because some may have misinterpeted the calling they have on their lives when God wanted them to go in a completely different direction. For example, the Lord may move on someone to speak or...even give a tounges and interpetation to the congregation....this person can then confuse that with the will of God that now they should somehow be a pastor or preacher when that may not be the case at all!
Again, there is a whole lot to being a pastor than just meeting the requirements. If you do meet the requirements then that is a great first step, but let me ask you something....what if that person meets all the requirements and is a horrible person dealing with the problems that people of God have in their lives? What if that person cannot handle the pressure of being paastor very well? Then all of the great preaching they may do goes right out the window when they have a nervous breakdown!
I just spoke to my former pastor a couple of nights ago and I will never forget what he told me about pastoring a church (He pastored our church for 15 years before having to step down because of sickenss..so we are in a pastorial search at our church ourselves!)
He said pastoring is about 10% preaching and 90% connecting with other people. If you are not great at the people side of things nor can handle the pressure that comes WITH pastoring, then the job may not be for you! It is that simple. And most congregational members are simply not equipped when it comes to pastoring a church!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
But how can the pastor know his saints are even maturing if the saints don't get to share their insights of scripture in the local assembly?
Pastor is a totally different story only because we have unconsciously made it into a stardom
Read what I posted ABOVE! This has absolutely NOTHING to DO with stardom or powergrabbing...not in a REAL PASTOR! I don't know what kind of pastors YOU have had, but the one's I have had are not like that at all. And if they are power grabbers then they are not the real thing that God has called to lead his flock!
And no one said anything about the saints not playing a major role in how the church develops! Most of the time in a lot of churches you cannot even get anyone to stand up and give a testimony from the saints...it is like pulling teeth. So exactly HOW are those same saints going to become a leader let alone a pastor, and do all of the things a pastor does?
I have said it before and will say it again..not everyone can be a pastor! That is not a shameful thing. There ARE different parts of the body and thge bible says that all of the parts of a chu7rch are important!
I don't care if you scrub the toilets of the church, you are still a vital part of the church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
Biblically, trying out should be meeting the qualifications of 1 Tim 3 and then functioning in the capacity of overseer for a while to test them before they are then officially overseers
I am curious how these pastors try out for the position. They come and preach one sermon??
A lot of people are assistant pastors or other leaders in the church for YEARS under a pastor before the launch out on their own.
AND YES you said the WORD..... TESTED....they are tested. Why? Because their pastor needs to see what they are made out of. Can they take the heat? Can they show love when even under tremendous pressure and problems? Can they seem to handle well different situations as they come along?
My former pastor that taught me when I was growing up and now has about 50 years in the ministry was under a pastor for years before he got his own church!
You can be sure he was "tested" by his pastor....but my point is that not everyone can make that cut .
Especially regular church members from the congregation like you want that never thought about pastoring in their life .
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