Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[maui]

what i've heard, is that he is going to washington Dc. not sure if its to stay or what his purpose is.

[tv1a]

...

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I wish you would quit condescending me.

Maybe my mistake in discussing this with you is that I am assuming you are a pastor. Are you? Because that will make a big difference in my thoughts. If you are, then you cannot neglect 80% of the people in your church system. If you are not, then I can see you working with a few people to teach. But heavens! If you teach people the way you post on these forums, I honestly don't know how much good you are doing. I say this with a honest heart and without malice on my part.

Are Christians supposed to be "conquering" people? That concept would be 'nicolaitan' principles or deeds, which Christ said He hates. I think I would rephrase that if I were you.

But...you don't do it...do you? That is... spend the other 20% of your time with the 80% of the people. If you are a pastor, that is very little time for the bulk amount of people.

How many of your hypothetical 20% will go out and evangelize? No doubt there will be a few. But my experience with the few who spends an extraordinary time with the pastor tells me that most of them likely consider themselves to be in the 'inner circle', the 'elite' of the church, and form their own clique that shuts everybody else out. I haven't seen a church yet that does not do this. Perhaps there are, but not in my region.

That is not true and you know it..you just won't admit it.

Reality is, there are very few people who actually commit themselves to reach the masses.

If this were true today, then why aren't our cities busting at the seams, overflowing with pentecostal churches? Why aren't the headquarters doing seminars for outreach ministry? Why aren't groups of people with 20% teaching them growing and dividing and taking out of their numbers another 20 % to teach and grow another group of people? I've been a member of 2 churches and attended a third OP church and virtually NONE of them had an outreach program and resented anybody who brought up the subject.

I'm going to tell you why. It's because when they get enough people..someone decides they want to pastor and starts a church with their ordinances, laws and bylaws and they want their church to grow to mega size. They don't want people to leave, not even 20% to go out and teach in the inner cities, the highways and the byways and have another fellowship starting, dividing and developing...constantly splitting and reaching out, growing...dividing again, reaching out...growing... you get the picture.

You are going by the actions of the Apostles that happened over 2000 years ago...even how the Apostles set up the church system back then, does not even remotely resemble what the organized church system has today. Today's system is...well...just messed up when compared to the early church.

As for the widows...they were Grecian widows who were neglected in the daily ministrations. The Apostles understood that they cannot do everything, thus delegated the more simpler matters to the brethren to take out 7 men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom to oversee these matters. I honestly doubt that they used 'scientific observations of a 80/20 principle' to ensure this to happen. They just used good common sense.

The Apostles were outreaching with the preaching of the gospel of Christ and delegated the more physically necessary matters to honest holy ghost filled men. We don't even get that type of outreach today. Everyone is shut up into their own little box. Many pastors do not want to delegate some of the responsibilities to other Holy Ghost men and women.

Tva1, are you just another person who wants to use mathematical and scientific methods or gimmicks to "reach people" for Christ?

Christ don't need 80/20 principle of some man to reach the people. Neither does man who truly believes in the power of the blood. In fact, I think man uses whatever gimmick he can find to catch people's attention instead of just preaching the gospel of Christ and the Cross. You can blather all you want on the issue of 80/20 rule and I bet it will net you far less than your expectations, but the love of God and the blood of Christ from the cross will be God's only acceptable way to reach people. All of this nonsense came up because I am appalled at your use of derogatory terms for human beings that either fell upon hard times or play the system. Even those who play the system need educating how wrong it is to do so if they are able bodied. Godly influence in their life can convict a soul into themselves wanting to do better.

Now you are adding the rule to the tithe paying, which is just another OT law you and many others dug up so you can have a steady paycheck. Pitiful!

Go ahead and preach to your 20 percent and call other people derogatory names, like you have already done in this thread. Your posts indicate that you lack love for your fellow man. You talk about discipleship...but what does Christ say about true discipleship?

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

(John 13:35)

Good luck with your gimmicks because you are going to need them.

As far as Memphis is concerned, you do not know who the people in my circle are. If I were sticking my nose in the Memphis mess, I would be over there in that church system digging up dirt to tell. There is a big difference between doing that and posting my opinion, which I do have a right to do.

Why? Because I have a very close loved one who moved to Memphis and is looking for a OP church to visit and maybe regularly attend. It would be unacceptable for my loved one to walk into that "Memphis mess". So yes, it is my concern because I do not want my loved one walking into that type of unstable and unbiblical situation that might shape what my loved one views about oneness pentecostal churches.

[tv1a]

A minister told a great story about growing up in a preacher's home. One day around the supper table one of the kids started talking about one of the local preachers who fell into sin. One of the kids asked their father how he felt. The preacher with tears in his eyes stopped supper and begin to pray. He prayed for reconciliation, he prayed for grace, he prayed for mercy for the erring preacher. He also asked God to forgive his kids for participating in hurtful gossip. The father said the situation is being handled appropriately. With that, he got up from the supper table.

The minister said that radically changed his life. We treat the errant preacher like the pharisees treated the woman caught in adultery. We have our rocks ready for launching.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by houston

Don't pretend that you don't have money stashed away.

I really hope you wrote that TIC.

[Sister Alvear]

Well...I know Sherri....she would give her last dime to missions...and know the way their church is set up...an example for others...(yeah, I know...some will say, "you say that because she is your friend..." However it is true she is my friend however I have many other friends that I would not say that about their setup.
When pastor´s are not open about money it is scary...not that I want to know everyone´s business however if a member of somewhere I would kinda like to know how things are setup...I think that is just and fair.

I think a true pastor suffers and sacrifices a lot...and he deserves a nice dependable car, a nice home and most people will agree with me...however when I see people that become super rich and things envolve around money..I would just step out and go somewhere else.

I have a nice home that a USA pastor gave me the money to build...I enjoy it what little time I am at home however it is not my GOD...it is something MY GOD gave me through the hands of a precious person...may I always use it and enjoy it for the work of His Kingdom.

[tv1a]

I don't know many OP's familiar with the Moravian Revival. 100 years of non stop prayer. 1 in 5 participants became missionary. No reasonable person would suggest this was an outreach gimmick, but 20 percent answered the call to outreach. Another example how the 80/20 rule played out.

[tv1a]

A minister I mentor had two Mercedes when I met him. It's not a sin for a preacher to drive a Mercedes.

[Sister Alvear]

Yes...oh for a repeat of that revival..

[Barb]

Originally Posted by canam

i didnt see the pic as being smug more like dead pan i dont see him driving a beemer as being outrageous they aint that expensive are they?, no different than a caddy. now if it was a mercedes 600 sl or something else in excess of 100/ 120 thou ok, besides you can lease them pretty cheap too.

Driving an expensive car is not outrageous. I certainly would have no objection to our pastor or bishops driving a BMW or any other high cost vehicle...as long as it didn't come to him through deceit and the church bank account.

So the issue is not the car. The issue is the heart of the man.

Now, many would claim that we don't know what is in the heart of a man, but when we speak, our words have a way of revealing the intent of our very being.

Likewise, pictures really do speak a thousand words, and in that photo I saw a man with a cocky attitude... I'm not talking behind his back. If I had an opportunity to tell TB this, I would.

Several years ago, a pastor in the city in which I live was found in sin...not UPCI, but another large Apostolic organization. This man was repentant, submitted to the counsel of the elders, and allowed himself to be set down for a year or more while someone else was overseeing the church. After that time the org restored him to pastor that church.

I don't see that humility in TB's actions or words.

With certainty I can say that if it were me, I would stay as far away from social media as I could. To me, this and all the rest does not reflect a man who sinned and is ready to make things right with God and man.

Yes, he looks cocky to me...

As with the incident I mentioned above, I can respect someone who says, "Yes, I am the man...I did it and I was wrong."

When when we put ourselves up as the victim, we are not sorry...only sorry we got caught.

I pray someone has the love for his soul to tell him directly that his actions do not speak of a heart of contrition.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by tv1a

I'm not offended by your statement. My style doesn't work well with religious people. It is easier for me to teach Biblical principles to hungry new people than to teach christians entrenched in a religious system. Ironically, most of my time is training and teaching new people. My mentoring style is successful.

Well good...but you still did not answer my question of whether you are a pastor or not. And it would be helpful, since you accuse me of taking your words out of context, to define what you believe. This is an Apostolic board and apostolic definitions range from the boards admin's definition all the way to the Catholic definition. (Catholics define themselves as apostolics in case folks do not know. )

Since you like to go by scientific rules, How do you measure your success? By what standard or rule?

Is your success visible? How does the reader know that you aren’t just blowing wind when you say your methods are successful?

For the record, I am not entrenched in any religious system.

Originally Posted by tv1a

A better term is influencing people to live a particular lifestyle.

Well now, why didn’t you just say so in the beginning?

Originally Posted by tv1a

Jesus had the same problem. He pointed that out a few times. Evangelism takes on different forms. I'm not sure how you would define evangelism. Evangelism could be as simple as sharing your testimony with someone. Evangelism could be an organized outreach to the community. Some people evangelize on the street corner thumping a Bible.

Outreach is important. It is the pastor's responsibility to teach the importance of evangelism. Outreach is what keeps the church from growing stale.

I agree. However, any more comment on this would require a better understanding as to how you classify yourself... a pastor? an evangelist? An anointed saint?

Originally Posted by tv1a

My experiences in legalism is most seasoned chrsitians are happy to sit on the pew, give a few bucks in the offering, maybe show up on church workday or help with a fundraiser and that's about it. The sad part is the people who want to help can't because they don't make the grade.

Heh. Who gives the 'grades"? Most ‘seasoned’ christians sit on the pew have been taught by their leadership to do that. I have seen over and over new born babes in Christ wanting to do something for Him, but the leadership in the church takes it upon themselves to thwart them saying that they don’t ‘make the grade’.

Who makes those decisions? Who quenches their spirit? People like YOU do by your words....don't make the grade and trash.

Originally Posted by tv1a

I understand you are looking at this through a oneness apostolic pentecostal prism. You are correct. OP's have a poor track record overall in personal evangelism. I know of churches outside the OP movement who realize the need to grow molecularly. OP's usually split because of disagreements. Some of the successful ministries I've been involved with or observed have established multiple churches in various locations. Once those churches are established, they run independent of the mother church. Non OP's aren't afraid of growing, splitting, creating new life. I don't know how to correct it in the OP movement. I gave up trying. If I can be encouraging, you don't need the masses to turn the world upside down. Jesus started with twelve.

But...today’s world is not turned upside down. If it were, there would be more Christ-like influence in society than there is now. Instead, what they see and what they read in the papers is about spiritual abuse, child molestation, adultery, lavish lifestyles etc. And it's not just in the OP movement. It's all over Christendom.

Originally Posted by tv1a

Today's system is just as messed up from the pew as it is from the pulpit. Many saints abdicate their responsibilities. For example, who do the saints call when someone is sick? The pastor. Who are they supposed to call? James said call the elders. How many board members do you know will go pray for the sick? Why do many elders avoid that responsibility? The Bible guarantees when the elder prays for the sick, the person will recover AND their sins will be forgiven. If you can trust an elder/board member to pray for the sick and get results, you got a board member who is in tuned to the heartbeat of God. Those are the kind of board members I love to work with.

It is messed up from the pew...I agree. Why? From an OP observation, it is because the leadership teaches them to call the pastor instead of the elders. Right? The pastor of any given church I’ve observed appoints the board members. Do some deliberately sabotage themselves by appointing ‘yes’ men to the board? A church is no better than it’s leadership. A home is no better than it’s leadership. You have a Holy Ghost filled husband and father, who loves the Lord, does his best to live by the Word and you have a happy home. Ditto with the wife. It takes everybody involved in the ‘cell’ (for lack of a better word) for the body to grow around it.

Originally Posted by tv1a

In one post, you take an issue with spending time to train people to do the work of the ministry, then you take issue that pastors don't want to delegate.

No, you do not seem to understand what issue I am taking with you despite how many times I have posted it here.

The issue I took before you started developing your 80/20 rule mindset on this thread, is that you use derogatory names for poor people, make off the wall statements like the disciples were a clique as if it is ok to separate people into different classes of human beings in your church. If that is inaccurate perception, then you did a poor job of trying to explain exactly what you mean.

The issue I take is that sometimes a pastor cannot or will not see past the few people he decides to surround himself with and ends up using favoritism instead of spiritual discernment when teaching a local assembly. Jesus did not spend all His time around 12 men. He taught, fed and ministered to the thousands. And nowhere in the bible will you find Jesus stooping to derogatory name calling.. to even the Pharisees and Saducees in his interaction with them. He used strong words, but never derogatory words.

So even if you hate people posting their opinions about somebody else's wrongdoings on the internet, calling them trailer park webcam prophets is unbecoming to you. If you think it is wrong to discuss current events in our churches, then you just don't do it. It is strange that people will read newspapers that report wrongdoings all over this nation and the world, but when it comes to a public place of worship, reporting wrongdoing becomes gossip?

And let me tell you, the OP pastors in this area are the biggest gossips around. Some of them sit around at their Sunday dinner table talking about the saints in their church...repeating things told to them in confidence.

Originally Posted by tv1a

I think I understand your misconceptions. That's because you have taken nearly everything I said out of context. That shows how weak your argument is.

Perhaps you ought to explain your position better if you do not want your postings to be taken out of context. It’s not about my having a weak argument. That is just a strawman statement you hide behind. This is a forum, not a round table discussion where people can look at faces and interact with just a spoken word.

Originally Posted by tv1a

The trailer park trash webcam prophet comment was referring to people who think it's their God given right to point out the weaknesses in other people on the internet when there is no scriptural authority. I gave specific examples. You twisted it around to suggest I was talking about the saints on the pew. I let that slide for a while.

I do not recall reading where you explained what a trailer park trash webcam prophet is...except for maybe in your mind. Regardless, it is disrespectful to label anybody as trash, internet or otherwise. You are on here..so what if that includes you?

Regarding your belief that I twisted it to mean the saints on the pew...yes, I did think you to mean that, but it was not a deliberate twist as you accuse me of. There are a lot of things that have no scriptural authority that happens in the organized church system. I could give you a list of those things, but you wouldn't agree with me.

Originally Posted by tv1a

Do you know the difference between discipleship and evangelism? Two different things. Evangelism is when you get a person converted to your brand of christianity. Discipleship is teaching a person to be like Christ. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

Yes, I understand the difference between the two. Sadly, I do not see discipleship in OP churches. What I have been trying to say is that in most of the OP churches I have attended, the pastorate surrounds himself with a few people and then those few people think that they have become the elite in the church system and do not disciple others. But you blather on about that ignorant 80/20 rule and how it is ok and correct to go by those rules. You are the one who took this conversation there without fully explaining yourself, then get angry when someone misunderstands you.

Originally Posted by tv1a

It appears you are deliberately twisting words and definitions. An obvious manipulation is when I said tithing is an example how the percentage stays the same, but the actual number changes. You blasted an inaccurate statement stating I was using tithing principle to collect a paycheck. A deliberate, inaccurate misrepresentation of my point. Anyone reading what I wrote would not come up to that conclusion.

Oh yeah? Well apparently somebody else did come to that conclusion or are you going to discount and trash them too?

Are you touchy about tithing? Do you preach and take tithes? If not, then why would you even use tithing as an example to your 80/20 rule?

Originally Posted by tv1a

If I appear condescending, it's because I gave you the benefit of the doubt. It appears your perception of what's said is different than what is said. Your problem is in your perception.

And YOUR problem is that you do not explain yourself adequately.

Originally Posted by tv1a

I never said the 80/20 rule was an outreach tool. I did say you teach the 20% who want to be effective in discipleship to teach the 80%. Part of discipleship is evangelism.

And you said that you don't bother with some people because they 'don't make the grade'. YOU limit the people to 20 %. A good teacher/pastor will invite whosoever that wants to participate in an effective discipleship program to learn and develop spiritual knowledge.

I would think that if only 20% shows up for that teaching, then it just happens to turn out that way. However, YOU made it read that you pick the 20% like Jesus picked the 12 disciples, then turned around and backtracked.

YOU sir... are no Jesus in that you have that much spiritual discernment to decide who makes the grade and who does not. (Your own words)