Noah and the Ark

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I read Ross's book, Creation and Time. I found it to be very good and I like a lot of what he has to say. I just think that the narrative is pretty clear about describing actual days not long periods of time. Besides, science would have microscopic and simple plant life come way before the age of the "third day".

Alan Haywood's theory (Divine Fiat Theory) is that we see God, in the dateless past, speaking for six literal days. Then everything spoken begins to manifest and develop over a period of billions of years. No specific order is required, no specific time frame or outline needed. That would mean that the world around us that has been developing for billions of years is the result of six creative days of divine utterance. All things can then be said to be the result of an utterance made during a single day.

What if...

What if we were a band a struggling former slaves and captives? We have the already ancient scrolls of a ceremonial law that governed the worship in some old ruin of a temple that our grandfathers claimed was a glorious "in their day." We have a history as a people, an identity and legends of greatness creep around the campfires at night; but today we're just a mess.

Now, you have to pull everyone together and recreate that greatness. How do you begin?

Your people never were all that united behind their temple state and state religion. The old kingdom was continually wracked by civil wars and the nastiest of rebellions and intrigue. The actual worship and "religion" of the people was this polyglot of pseudo-Egyptian and Phoenician practices with the occasional outright abomination and murder thrown into the mix. It didn't square up at all with what is described in the scrolls you read; and now they've acquired a a taste of Persian and actual Babylonian ideas. Before Babylon was almost a legend itself - but now everyone's actually been there!

So what do you do? How do you bring order to this chaos? How do you give these people a hope that some ancient God their ancestors only "sort of" worshipped is really going to be among them after so humiliating a defeat? Where was God when their grandfathers were enslaved? Why were their grandfathers enslaved in the first place?

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by pelathais

C'mon JamDat!

It's not rocket science.

The question, again, isn't "What CAN God do?" The question is, "What DID God do?"

You understand that don't you? We're simply asking, "What actually happened?" It's like being a crime scene investigator. Nobody saw O.J. kill his ex-wife and Mr. Goldman, but just about everyone in the world believes that he did.

Why?

Because of the evidence of what DID happen. We are all persuaded by the evidence.

Now, could O.J. have actually been innocent while shape-shifting reptilian aliens framed him for the crimes?

Well, actually "no" to that one. But, we can answer "no" because of the evidence. The same thing with regard to the age of the earth.

I've got the evidence in my hand. HIStory... As far as why would God create something new to appear old, I don't know if He did in creation. I was just pointing out that He did at least one time do it.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by JamDat

I've got the evidence in my hand. HIStory... As far as why would God create something new to appear old, I don't know if He did in creation. I was just pointing out that He did at least one time do it.

The appearance of age argument assumes that everything scientists are saying and doing is actually right. It does so by affirming that the earth APPEARS old. However, it argues that the earth is not actually old but that at some point in the past God created everything mature. If God created everything mature then what would those things have looked like in their younger years if they had any? The answer is exactly like scientists are saying.

So here's the problem. The appearance of age argument implicitly says that God created a world such that if it were possible and we looked at what things would have been like before that initial mature creation, then those things would actually point to another creation in the Big Bang billions of years ago.

So it seems to me that you have to at least acknowlege that it's odd that whether the Big Bang actually happened or not that God would create a mature creation but then that mature creation would point back to an older creation in the Big Bang.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by pelathais

He that sat on the throne said, "Behold! I make all things new."

Revelation 21:5

This of course speaks of the re-creation... but why do you think the original creation was made just to appear all aged, scarred and worn out looking?

When I am raised from the dead, will I have the scars, swollen joints and diseased members that I now possess? I wasn't born with scars the first time. I was "new."

Each creation is new. Each created thing is new.

The appearance of age argument is like asking for us to believe that Adam was created as a 30 year old man who also happened to have a scar on his left knee from when he fell off of his bicycle when he was ten years old.

Refusal to acknowledge the appearance of age factor is to deny the reality of the Bible's claim. Even if God created a 30 year old male without any scars or evidence of injury the question wouldn't be related to his age, it would be related to how a 30 man could live through life without a single scar or injury. It would be taken for granted that he was 30 years old. And if Adam spoke... look out.... he'd even appear to have been educated! Creation by it's very nature DEMANDS an appearance of age. You can't get around it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The question, again, isn't "What CAN God do?" The question is, "What DID God do?"

I'd go further. The question isn't even, "What DID God do?" The question is, "What did God SAY he did?"

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Yes, however, with regard to the age of the earth and its geologic history over the past 4,000 years we are simply looking at the earth and recognizing that it exists on the same "level" as us and always has.

What is the testimony of the earth in this matter? What has happened here over the past 4,000, or 6,000 or 4.5 billion years?

These are questions that can be asked and answered "at our level."

You're reducing God down to your level. Is that not an idol?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I appreciate what you said (and what I snipped to make this fit a bit better ) about miracles, Chris. I agree and I think that I share similar experiences with you in this regard.



What "applied science" have you seen that "takes God into account?"

Yuri Gagarin (and his evil Soviet paymasters) used "applied science" to launch him into space. He was the first human being to make that journey, apart perhaps from some Biblical characters. When he reached orbital altitude he looked around and declared, "I have looked around and I do not see God."

He then was returned safely to earth and entered the history books.

"Applied science" by it's nature doesn't take any consideration at all of God. The scientists involved may or may not have faith in God, it doesn't matter. It's science. It's either an application of known "laws" or it may be the investigation into the unknown, but it's just science.

Applied science doesn't need to take God into account. If you toss an apple up into the air it will come down. That's just the way it is. No need to consider God. However, if you ask where the first apple came from... you're off target from the start without factoring in God.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Refusal to acknowledge the appearance of age factor is to deny the reality of the Bible's claim. Even if God created a 30 year old male without any scars or evidence of injury the question wouldn't be related to his age, it would be related to how a 30 man could live through life without a single scar or injury. It would be taken for granted that he was 30 years old. And if Adam spoke... look out.... he'd even appear to have been educated! Creation by it's very nature DEMANDS an appearance of age. You can't get around it.

The creation from the Big Bang does not have an appearance of age. What's more is that your idea of a young creation with an appearance of age still points to a Big Bang. Sounds to me like the Big Bang is the winner......

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Refusal to acknowledge the appearance of age factor is to deny the reality of the Bible's claim. Even if God created a 30 year old male without any scars or evidence of injury the question wouldn't be related to his age, it would be related to how a 30 man could live through life without a single scar or injury. It would be taken for granted that he was 30 years old. And if Adam spoke... look out.... he'd even appear to have been educated! Creation by it's very nature DEMANDS an appearance of age. You can't get around it.

In very limited situations I can accept something made to appear older as in the case of an adult Adam and an adult Eve, both looking like VERY healthy adults. Where I draw the line is when it is insinuated that God would also create a false history in His creation of something new which is made to appear old. For instance, as already mentioned by Pel the example of God creating a scar on Adam's knee from a fall he has as a child, which never actually took place, or analyzing a hair sample from Eve and deducing her overall diet from months before she was actually made. God would NOT do either one because He cannot lie. The same thing goes for our planet and the cosmos, it is FILLED with history both large (supernova that would have occured BEFORE the creation according to young earthers) and the very small (radiometric clocks).

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

In very limited situations I can accept something made to appear older as in the case of an adult Adam and an adult Eve, both looking like VERY healthy adults. Where I draw the line is when it is insinuated that God would also create a false history in His creation of something new which is made to appear old. For instance, as already mentioned by Pel the example of God creating a scar on Adam's knee from a fall he has as a child, which never actually took place, or analyzing a hair sample from Eve and deducing her overall diet from months before she was actually made. God would NOT do either one because He cannot lie. The same thing goes for our planet and the cosmos, it is FILLED with history both large (supernova that would have occured BEFORE the creation according to young earthers) and the very small (radiometric clocks).

The notion that an appearance of age would be a lie of sorts is unfounded. You see, it can only be said to be a lie if God did it and just simply let us find it and believe it. However, God tells us in his Word what he truly did. So he can't be charged with a lie.