It is in many churches but we are talking about someone preaching the gospel...
By the definition used on this thread a platform standard is a standard that is preached as only applicable to those on the platform (and possibly other ministries like door knocking). If a standard was preached for christians to follow at all times we wouldn't be calling it a platform standard. We instead would be calling it a standard.
In fact those same churches often apply that same standard to people who go out and knock on doors to witness and invite people to church.
See above
See above
The majority of christian-sinner interaction happens during our individual daily lives. If a standard was useful in reaching the lost we would not limit it to the platform and door knocking ministires. Instead we would preach it as a cultural standard that we should follow at all times for the sake of the gospel. The same line of reasoning goes for platform standards where the primary intent might be to not be offensive.
Most churches do. Some just have a slightly higher standard for those in the Ministry
I have no problem for having behavioral and conduct type standards for ministers (the bible speaks alot on those type of requirements)
Even the bible stresses a higher standard of conduct for Elders. Why can't a church do the same?
A church definetly can and should have high requirements for elders but those requirements should not just be extra requirements for while they are at church. They should be all the time requirements like the all the time requirements bible gives to them.
I left out the meaningless parts of your post in my reply. I hope you don't mind. I responded in red. Overall I agree with the basic premises of most of your points, but I don't think there should be a difference in standards while in church compared to our daily lives. I think if a standard is useful it will be useful in our daily lives as well as our time at church.
Keep in mind I'm not arguing against standards as a whole. Or even dress standards as a whole. Cultural dress standards are fine because they have a purpose of not causing those in that culture to be confused or offended.
Elder dress standards (other than modest dress) don't really serve much of a purpose. I suppose asking the elders to wear something that will signify they are elders during church might prove useful and I'd be willing to grant that as a meaningful use of a elder in church dress standard. Every other dress standard for them that would be useful in church would also be useful out of church and thus there shouldn't be any more church specific dress standards for them.
Platform dress standards serve no purpose because the only way they get to be platform dress standards is because the standard has no use outside of the church platform. (If they did we would be talking about some kind of standard other than a platform standard). Any dress standard that signifies a persons role on the platform or even in the church I can understand. Things like choir robes or a special pin for door greetors to wear. And of course a general ban on immodest dress is acceptable too because that's something a christian should already be practicing everywhere.
Anytime a platform standard is justified there is typically a simple argument given about how dressing that particular way is a good thing. If the argument is true and dressing that way is a good thing then quite simply the way of dress in question shouldn't be a platform standard but instead it should be a cultural standard that is taught as applicable even outside of church.
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The issue, I think, isn't standards. No one argues the idea that believers ought to be presentable to the general public. None of us would advocate a pastor preaching with his shirt off, or a woman in her undergarments singing a special.
So, all churches by default, need to have some level of standards, to keep things decent and in order. We can argue round and round about how far to take things, but that is useless.
The main issue is the "platform". A church without a platform doesn't need to have special standards. Only churches that have a laity/clergy distinction create standards for the clergy while allowing the "laity" to hold to a lower standard of appearance, apparel, and etc..
Churches that follow the New Testament model where all believers are priests and ministers unto God don't have platforms, and therefore, don't have specially arranged standards introduced at the whim of one or a small select group of people.
Churches without a laity/clergy distinction allow the bearded man in the back row with his farmer's tan and boots on just as much right, being full of the Holy Spirit, to minister, pray, sing, and preach, as much as the sharp dressed man or woman stepping off of a yacht, who is likewise just as full of the Holy Spirit.
So, if ever this laity/clergy distinction would disappear, and we all could truly be one in the Lord, all operating as priests, all ministering under an unction from the Holy One, no one would look twice and compare brothers to brothers, sisters to sisters and etc. They'd be too busy being a blessing to God and man. There wouldn't be time for it and no one would care.
It is in many churches but we are talking about someone preaching the gospel...
By the definition used on this thread a platform standard is a standard that is preached as only applicable to those on the platform (and possibly other ministries like door knocking). If a standard was preached for christians to follow at all times we wouldn't be calling it a platform standard. We instead would be calling it a standard.
Not exactly. Often those platform standards are preached to the congregation too, but is a REQUIREMENT if one wants to be on the platform
In fact those same churches often apply that same standard to people who go out and knock on doors to witness and invite people to church.
See above
See above
See above
The majority of christian-sinner interaction happens during our individual daily lives. If a standard was useful in reaching the lost we would not limit it to the platform and door knocking ministires. Instead we would preach it as a cultural standard that we should follow at all times for the sake of the gospel. The same line of reasoning goes for platform standards where the primary intent might be to not be offensive.
Again, it's not limited to just the platform. A platform standard is simply what is required of someone who desires to be on the platform but they are usually taught to the entire congregation.
Most churches do. Some just have a slightly higher standard for those in the Ministry
I have no problem for having behavioral and conduct type standards for ministers (the bible speaks alot on those type of requirements)
Me either, but there were certain "appearance" teachings in the bible that are often associated with the culture of that area. Why do you suppose they were to keep those traditions? Also Gentiles were supposed to keep certain parts of the law because, according to the Apostles "Moses was read in every city". That is an obvious reference to there being Jews in every city. It made it hard to reach them. In fact Paul said "To the Jew, I became a Jew and to the Gentiles I became a Gentile".
I believe some people have believed that it's better to be clean shaven to have a certain "trustworthy appearance" for the purposes of spreading the gospel and attracting seekers. Not every "standard" though is geared towards that end however. But you can see how some things, despite being dressed or appearing "Good enough for God", might be necessary culturally to do in order to reach a society.
Even the bible stresses a higher standard of conduct for Elders. Why can't a church do the same?
A church definetly can and should have high requirements for elders but those requirements should not just be extra requirements for while they are at church. They should be all the time requirements like the all the time requirements bible gives to them.
Again you misunderstand. It's not a standard for ONLY when they are in church. It's standard for everyone but a requirement IF that person wants to be on the platform
My comments are in blue. Enjoy
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Whenever I've had people over for fellowship and Bible study, or have gone to one myself, what do I see?
All in casual dress (sometimes even with women in *gasp* sweatpants), sitting together on the couch or floor, sharing and receiving, speaking and teaching, ministering and being ministered to, and on it goes. Kids on laps, or playing or coloring, husbands and wives snuggling up, and etc. It is, dare I use the word, glorious?
But when I attend an "official service" at a church building, with clergy present, almost all of that goes away. The razors come out, the suits and ties come out, the whatever comes out for the purpose of personal beautification and other outward adornment reasons.
In a home, people are eating and preaching, swallowing their food and reading along in the Bible at the same time, and God is there.
Go to a service, and food isn't even allowed in the "sanctuary".
For what? Why? For the liturgy and so the platform people can do their thing while the Body sits and watches.
To me, when churches operate like that, they are but a crib, to keep the babes in the Lord safe. But the crib gets pretty small for the growing saint after awhile. They need a place to stretch out and grow. It's then that the home, and not some other building (which hosts a platform, clergy, and laity) becomes the best place for them to be.
Yes friend its really in THOSE kind of gatherings that LOVE CAN GROW! You get to really know the others. It creates close knit fellowship and like mindedness! Keep it coming!
The main issue is the "platform". A church without a platform doesn't need to have special standards. Only churches that have a laity/clergy distinction create standards for the clergy while allowing the "laity" to hold to a lower standard of appearance, apparel, and etc..
Imagine my shock the revival I was in at the first Apostolic Church I attended. The visiting Preacher after offering prayer for the blessing of the meeting then said "The laity may now be seated".
It was the first time in 6 years of Church going I had heard anyone called that.
It is present, but not yet in its fullest sense. We are moving that way, though, and have been for a while now (I would say we are at about 70% of the way there). I have been one of the main instigators. Some changes take time, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
Thanks, Michael.
This is how I see it (from my own experience).
Whenever I've had people over for fellowship and Bible study, or have gone to one myself, what do I see?
All in casual dress (sometimes even with women in *gasp* sweatpants), sitting together on the couch or floor, sharing and receiving, speaking and teaching, ministering and being ministered to, and on it goes. Kids on laps, or playing or coloring, husbands and wives snuggling up, and etc. It is, dare I use the word, glorious?
But when I attend an "official service" at a church building, with clergy present, almost all of that goes away. The razors come out, the suits and ties come out, the whatever comes out for the purpose of personal beautification and other outward adornment reasons.
In a home, people are eating and preaching, swallowing their food and reading along in the Bible at the same time, and God is there.
Go to a service, and food isn't even allowed in the "sanctuary".
For what? Why? For the liturgy and so the platform people can do their thing while the Body sits and watches.
To me, when churches operate like that, they are but a crib, to keep the babes in the Lord safe. But the crib gets pretty small for the growing saint after awhile. They need a place to stretch out and grow. It's then that the home, and not some other building (which hosts a platform, clergy, and laity) becomes the best place for them to be.
This thrills my heart to hear this. I know there are a lot of churches who have begun to use cell groups and have one service on Sunday, with cell group services throughout the week. I am wondering if this is what you are speaking of.
In fact, in a home setting, fellowship becomes more intimate, and relationships are built more easily, than a large group meeting where everyone is focused on the group on the platform, rather than each other. I truly believe home fellowship is key to becoming a vibrant, and alive body of Christ.
I can certainly agree that as long as the church is teaching a standard is for all members and then goes on to make it a platform requirement I'm okay with that.
For example if a church teaches that men should not wear beards and then goes on to make that a platform standard I'm okay with that. Though depending on their reason for disallowing beards I may agree or disagree with that standard of no beards.
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You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
I can certainly agree that as long as the church is teaching a standard is for all members and then goes on to make it a platform requirement I'm okay with that.
For example if a church teaches that men should not wear beards and then goes on to make that a platform standard I'm okay with that. Though depending on their reason for disallowing beards I may agree or disagree with that standard of no beards.
I don't agree at all with the "beards" thing. It's a relic of a past notion, if it ever truly was about the hippies. It needs to go
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I don't agree at all with the "beards" thing. It's a relic of a past notion, if it ever truly was about the hippies. It needs to go
Amen. The thing about people with beards looking untrustworthy does not work either. When I was a boy there were pictures of Jesus everywhere and they all save none depict him with a beard. So when I saw my first "Jesus Freaks" with long hair and beards they reminded me of him.
On another note the clean shaven, suit and tie people reminded me of politicians and businessmen who to many are very untrustworthy.
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