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  #11  
Old 09-18-2009, 12:49 PM
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ManOfWord ManOfWord is offline
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Re: Justifying our Traditions

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
Explain how those two parse themselves out.

My loyalty and submission is ultimately to Truth.
Of course my loyalty is first of all to Jesus Christ, who IS truth. However, I also have people to work with down here.

I can be loyal and still disagree. I can be loyal and express my disagreement. I can be loyal and support someone in the midst of their faults while not excusing their faults.

I am loyal to those over me and always have been, whether I agreed or not. If the disagreement was too pointed to continue the relationship, I gracefully bowed out remaining loyal. My "employees" can expect unquestionable loyalty from me and I expect it of them. That being the case, I have still had to terminate people, but I have NEVER trashed them to the congregation.
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  #12  
Old 09-18-2009, 12:52 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: Justifying our Traditions

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Originally Posted by ManOfWord View Post
Of course my loyalty is first of all to Jesus Christ, who IS truth. However, I also have people to work with down here.

I can be loyal and still disagree. I can be loyal and express my disagreement. I can be loyal and support someone in the midst of their faults while not excusing their faults.

I am loyal to those over me and always have been, whether I agreed or not. If the disagreement was too pointed to continue the relationship, I gracefully bowed out remaining loyal. My "employees" can expect unquestionable loyalty from me and I expect it of them. That being the case, I have still had to terminate people, but I have NEVER trashed them to the congregation.
Do you remain loyal when they aren't loyal to you and trash you?
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Last edited by mizpeh; 09-18-2009 at 12:55 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-18-2009, 12:54 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Justifying our Traditions

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Originally Posted by ManOfWord View Post
Of course my loyalty is first of all to Jesus Christ, who IS truth. However, I also have people to work with down here.

I can be loyal and still disagree. I can be loyal and express my disagreement. I can be loyal and support someone in the midst of their faults while not excusing their faults.

I am loyal to those over me and always have been, whether I agreed or not. If the disagreement was too pointed to continue the relationship, I gracefully bowed out remaining loyal. My "employees" can expect unquestionable loyalty from me and I expect it of them. That being the case, I have still had to terminate people, but I have NEVER trashed them to the congregation.
Okay. Thanks for the response.
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  #14  
Old 09-18-2009, 09:00 PM
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noeticknight noeticknight is offline
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Re: Justifying our Traditions

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Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* View Post
Many Pentecostals seem scared to death to question anything. As if they are playing around with heresy if they do. I bang my head against that wall all the time. It's frustrating. I believe that truth will stand up to scrutiny.
Sorry, but I can’t resist these types of discussions. I suppose the pendulum has swung the other way and became lodged on one side for too long. Allow me to briefly challenge some of the logic that has been presented (in the context of the Apostolic movement).
1. “Because businesses have high standards, therefore, the Church should.”
Absolutely the Church should have standards, however, not on this basis. We must first recognize that this is often said in the context of the local assembly. Individually, we all form our own standards, so, which ones should we keep and which ones should we discard when stacked up against the corporate offerings? The answer is not always an easy one. This statement is simply an inappropriate comparison, and superficial at best. It is ambiguous as well. What businesses are we referencing here? Not all have noble objectives. Shouldn’t we consider what the objective is before assigning standards of practice? From a rational standpoint, this states that A should adopt X because B has adopted X. Or, in other words, McDonald’s claiming that you should eat their Big Macs daily because Burger King serves Whoppers daily. Logically, this statement lacks foundation, and is actually suspended over nothingness.

2. “How will the world know us if we aren’t different?”
This is possibly the most often used appeal when attempting to prove some arbitrary preference to an audience. The appropriate application of this logic rests on its premise. We should not assume that anything that differentiates a community from another is sufficient grounds for adopting it. Differences can be explicitly expressed, but it must first be based on some principle truth. This is so that communities can maintain the standard faithfully in spite of differences in cultural norms, personal beliefs, or other influential factors. What was the differentiating mark for the Christian faith? I believe it was simply love towards one another.

3. “Because leadership has a right to set the standard.”
This actually depends on the nature of the community. If it is an organization maintaining standards to hold their constituents accountable, then in most cases, yes. If it is the body of Christ, perhaps we should reevaluate the scriptures to see if the standards have already been established. We must remember that the structure of the early church was vastly different than the American model we are familiar with. Therefore, choosing to be part of a fellowship or organization is a choice, not a necessity. Without going over certain scriptures that are repeatedly manipulated to ensure this seat of arbitrary authority, I will approach this from a purely rational perspective. The body of Christ is primarily constrained by two things: Christ’s love, and our reciprocation and obedience to that love. The issue that compromises this essential fabric is clearly stated in scripture, sin. Outside of these parameters, any tradition that leadership places on par with real moral judgment, results in effectively creating an unnecessary situation in which one’s faith could actually be jeopardized by disobedience to that tradition. In my opinion, leaders will be held accountable for explicitly defining these standards of righteousness on the basis of their accuracy, and their real relevance to Biblical truth, not just noble intentions. In addition, if one decides to follow another individual, that leader should be held accountable to the same moral code as well. In the context of Christianity, many people learn under a minister within some local assembly, but both parties should keep in mind that they are ultimately accountable to the truths of God’s word, not each other’s formulations or subjective interpretations of it. So should one submit to extra-biblical traditions within an assembly of believers? If one wants to participate in the community, yes. But I will go on record for saying that not all traditions are healthy, and it is up to the participant to determine their consequences. There should be a mutual understanding between the leader and followers that the reasons for such traditions are for the benefit of the community, and are subject to amendment if their consequences prove otherwise.

4. “Because this standard is based on scripture and truth.”
This is the most potent reason for compliance of standards in my opinion. If one can convince another that this is most certainly the case, then the tradition will be embraced religiously to the extent that it may be very near impossible to reverse the belief. Before making a moral judgment, one must understand the basics of what makes it valid. According to the standard theory, (derived from Kantian ethics, utilitarian ethics, and Judeo-Christian ethics), moral judgment must require three elements to be considered valid and logically defensible (as discussed by Shaw and Barry in "Moral Issues in Business").
1. It must be based on logic.
2. It must be based on fact.
3. It must be based on accepted moral principles.
Many of the truths in the Bible hold these basic rules as we understand them. In fact, it is from the writings of the Bible that we understand the framework of these principles. Proving assertions that traditions or standards are based on truth under these maxims requires critical thought. That is why, in my opinion, many people simply go along with the weak logic that is conditioned into their mind, in spite of its inconsistency with their real-world experiences. Morality need not be confined to a religious setting. As a rule, moral standards always take precedence over other standards.

In conclusion, I have only scratched the surface of what makes this topic so inexhaustible. These are my thoughts on the matter, and are drawn from my educational background and personal struggles with various religious experiences. I hope someone finds them useful.

Last edited by noeticknight; 09-18-2009 at 09:47 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-18-2009, 11:48 PM
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noeticknight noeticknight is offline
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Re: Justifying our Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* View Post
This is a question I often ask myself when I'm studying a subject:

(from this blog: )


"Sometimes I ask myself of certain teachings/traditions, “If I was not raised as a Oneness Pentecostal, and was freshly converted to Christianity, would I think this teaching/tradition was clearly taught in Scripture? Would I be persuaded by the evidence that I am offering others in defense of this teaching/tradition?” Sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no. While it is painful to come to the conclusion that your religious tradition is mistaken on some point or points, intellectual honesty and true Christianity requires that be more interested in the truth than in justifying our religious heritage."


More HERE

This guy has a really, really good blog!

(thanks, Mizpeh!)
Thank you for sharing the blog guys! I will enjoy reading it in the future. I copied and pasted my response on this thread to his blog, just to flesh out his "philosophical musings" a bit.
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