Noah and the Ark

[Aquila]

One of the things I was always really embarrassed about was that while I was advocating Day-Age creation and the discoveries of science... those discoveries were being reviewed, rejected, and often retracted due to fraudulent data all the time. The more closely my interpretation of Genesis agreed with science... the more Genesis seemed discredited when evolutionary discoveries were discredited. But I discovered that when I embraced literal creationism the Bible stands alone. I rest assured that one day (perhaps in the millennium) scientists will shake their heads in awe at some new discovery relating to physics and time and see that Genesis as written is absolutely plausible.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Edited I can understand. But I believe it to have originally been written by Moses.

I have a hard time seeing some scribe going back and just adding the "Dan" interpolation in Genesis 14:14, when the whole explanation was already in Judges 18. The whole story line makes more sense if you see the same hand in Genesis AND Judges.

The death of Moses fits too well into the whole narrative of Deuteronomy and Joshua through 2 Kings to be just some sort addendum as well.

The books themselves show such a great deal of harmony (see for example the repeated use of "unto this day") in the narrative that that we'd have to ask, "Why did several centuries of scribes go to so much trouble to just make it look as though the whole work (Genesis - 2 Kings) was done by the same hand?"

"Deuteronomy" means "The Second Law." Why would Moses have written the same Law twice? Why is there a "Second Law" at all if the "First Law" was written and available? Why didn't Moses just hold up the "First Law" and read it again?

The text clearly has a history and the text clearly wants us to understand that it has this history.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

One of the things I was always really embarrassed about was that while I was advocating Day-Age creation and the discoveries of science... those discoveries were being reviewed, rejected, and often retracted due to fraudulent data all the time. The more closely my interpretation of Genesis agreed with science... the more Genesis seemed discredited when evolutionary discoveries were discredited. But I discovered that when I embraced literal creationism the Bible stands alone. I rest assured that one day (perhaps in the millennium) scientists will shake their heads in awe at some new discovery relating to physics and time and see that Genesis as written is absolutely plausible.

Not in this universe.

Just what "evolutionary discoveries" have ever been "discredited?"

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I wouldn't tell them that they'll burn in Hell. But I would tell them that this is God's Word.

Think of it like this... the Bible has been preserved without any major alteration for thousands of years. Evolutionary discoveries are retracted every year because of fraudulent data. Who's report will you believe?

Being a believer means believing in an all powerful God who isn't limited by scientific laws or theories. He is so grand he leaves all scientists, and even many many believers baffled. Welcome to the world of the mystical and supernatural.

I believe that the more we water it down for their "acceptance" the more we'll loose in the long run.

Are giving up your medical coverage then? You know, it just weakens everyone's faith in the healing power that is still available for us today every time you go to a doctor.

Just do miracles (Acts 6:8). Why "water it down?"

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I wouldn't tell them that they'll burn in Hell. But I would tell them that this is God's Word.

Think of it like this... the Bible has been preserved without any major alteration for thousands of years. Evolutionary discoveries are retracted every year because of fraudulent data. Who's report will you believe?

Being a believer means believing in an all powerful God who isn't limited by scientific laws or theories. He is so grand he leaves all scientists, and even many many believers baffled. Welcome to the world of the mystical and supernatural.

I believe that the more we water it down for their "acceptance" the more we'll loose in the long run.

True, but the bible has never been under the scrutiny as it is now. It needs to be able to survive the test of simple common sense if it is to be accepted. It is impossible to get someone to the cross of Jesus Christ (the only place that matters) if they keep tripping over whales eating people, arks carrying 2 billion elephants, and God ordering people to kill people.

After all, why don't we believe in Santa Claus? Well, for starters, it's impossible for one guy to visit every house on earth in one night. How can one guy be in that many malls across the U.S.? Enquiring minds wanna know. And as insulting as that may sound, we're up against a culture that sees Noah like Santa Claus. If the best line we can come up with is, "Because the bible says so", we're gonna lose, and statistically, we are losing. Big time. The American Church is sliding numerically just like the European church did a few decades ago. We're headed toward dormancy. If we don't step up our game, the "latter rain" is going to become a drought.

[n david]

Originally Posted by notofworks

And as insulting as that may sound, we're up against a culture that sees Noah like Santa Claus. If the best line we can come up with is, "Because the bible says so", we're gonna lose, and statistically, we are losing. Big time. The American Church is sliding numerically just like the European church did a few decades ago. We're headed toward dormancy. If we don't step up our game, the "latter rain" is going to become a drought.

Noah and biblical history isn't the reason for dwindling numbers in churches. The reason for dwindling numbers is because a lot of churches, possibly the majority of christian churches in america have no power. Lives are unchanged, people can go clubbin' and bump n grind on friday and saturday then sing in the choir on sunday. You can live life and party like a rockstar and still be on the church board or in a church ministry. Churches have become centers for so-called "social justice" and have become politically correct. There is not black and white; no naming sin as such. Instead sin is tolerated as merely being human and fallible. There is no hell, no judgement for sin.

Fortunately I believe there will be a day when some churches finally wake up, shake off the dust, get back to the Bible and there will be a final great awakening.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by n david

Noah and biblical history isn't the reason for dwindling numbers in churches. The reason for dwindling numbers is because a lot of churches, possibly the majority of christian churches in america have no power. Lives are unchanged, people can go clubbin' and bump n grind on friday and saturday then sing in the choir on sunday. You can live life and party like a rockstar and still be on the church board or in a church ministry. Churches have become centers for so-called "social justice" and have become politically correct. There is not black and white; no naming sin as such. Instead sin is tolerated as merely being human and fallible. There is no hell, no judgement for sin.

Fortunately I believe there will be a day when some churches finally wake up, shake off the dust, get back to the Bible and there will be a final great awakening.

Even the churches that are known to forbid and chasten such behavior are in decline. People are constantly being fed this "either/or" line of reasoning:

"Either fundamentalism is true, the earth is 6,000 years old and the continents were covered by a flood just 4,000 years ago or you might as well go out and go clubbin' and bump n grind on friday and saturday then sing in the choir on sunday. You can live life and party like a rockstar and still be on the church board or in a church ministry..."

So, what do people do when the only choices are "clubbin' like a rock star" or believing foolishness?

How about the obvious and often unmentioned choice? The decision to accept the natural world as God has created it, and accept it on both God's and nature's terms? This acceptance involves an understanding of cause and effect.

If you have a cause like natural sexual procreation you will have an effect like biological evolution among the offspring. This is just accepting nature on its own terms.

Also: If you go "clubbin' like a rock star" every Friday and Saturday night, your life will bear the results of such behavior and you'll suffer the consequences. This would be an example of refusing to accept life and reality on its terms.

Simple cause and effect. Like John 7:37-38. Cause and effect.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Upon what basis do you believe it?

Failing to answer that would result in your abandonment of all evangelism. What basis would we offer to others to believe "our Book" over the many other books that have made similar claims of divine inspiration?

Then what was the motivation behind the original miracle? Surely there were people in that day who wanted to "dissect and discredit" everything God was doing. That was the primary impetus behind Elijah's display at Mount Carmel (1 Kings 18) during the same period of time.

And yet, despite the sneering skeptics, Elijah kept right on doing miracles. Why should our skeptics of today have such might as to over power the miracles that God would otherwise want to do? Has God become weakened in the intervening years?

I'm afraid that if the Bible were nothing but a story book full of such silly tales as that I wouldn't believe any of it.

I believe the Bible for what it does say and the message it actually imparts; not whatever silly notions "some preacher" wants to attach to it.

And you either accept it on its own terms or you make up stuff like "if Jonah had swallowed the whale..."

I'm afraid that from this testimony so far, that I probably can safely say that I have more confidence the Bible as God's inspired word than you or that "some preacher."

Sorry, not to boast, but if you can't accept the Bible for what it says and accept the real world within which we live then I have to question the measure of faith on display. To accept this approach to Bible apologetics I have to accept the idea that "Jonah might have swallowed the whale" if that helped to move the story line along?

This sounds more like something the desperate prophets of Baal might have been saying about their "books" just before they gave up and started to cut themselves.

I don't mean to be harsh Esther, especially not to you. But the "just believe the Bible no matter what" line of thinking is the kind of stuff that got the "Died While Fasting" thread started and contributes to the people who let their own children die when a simple shot of insulin would have saved their lives.

I know you'd never be so callous about innocent human life. I'm just trying to suggest that there's probably a lot of good exegesis, hermeneutics and plain old common sense within you that you haven't even begun to tap yet.

Pel YOU might be able to question things in the Bible yet still believe it, but how many are questioning and can't find the answers they think they want and say it is not true, since it doesn't prove out according to their way of thinking?

I find it hard to believe you think you believe the bible more than I do when I am not the one questioning it. I don't see the need to question it. I believe it as written.

I would not want to be the stumbling block to cause someone to doubt the Word and therefore doubt God and become lost.

I think many of you are being deceived and "think" you are being dilengent in proving God's Word. I don't see where it needs proving. It has always been proven out.

As to the Reed Sea iinstead of the Red Sea is nonsense IMO. In fact, I heard Bro. Treece say he read where someone found the wheels from the chariots in the Red Sea, proving Moses crossed the Red Sea. That would dispell any Reed Sea, which I have never heard of.

What would be the miracle in crossing a marsh land?

You need to be very careful you and others don't become deceived in trying to prove the Bible to be what it says.

I still say you either believe the Word of God or you don't. Believing it does not cause people to fast until they die. Some people do ignorant things and blame God all the time. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with the Bible nor God.

Again, I caution all of you to be careful in trying to "prove" the Bible to suit your own understandings.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by n david

Noah and biblical history isn't the reason for dwindling numbers in churches. The reason for dwindling numbers is because a lot of churches, possibly the majority of christian churches in america have no power. Lives are unchanged, people can go clubbin' and bump n grind on friday and saturday then sing in the choir on sunday. You can live life and party like a rockstar and still be on the church board or in a church ministry. Churches have become centers for so-called "social justice" and have become politically correct. There is not black and white; no naming sin as such. Instead sin is tolerated as merely being human and fallible. There is no hell, no judgement for sin.

Fortunately I believe there will be a day when some churches finally wake up, shake off the dust, get back to the Bible and there will be a final great awakening.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by n david

Noah and biblical history isn't the reason for dwindling numbers in churches. The reason for dwindling numbers is because a lot of churches, possibly the majority of christian churches in america have no power. Lives are unchanged, people can go clubbin' and bump n grind on friday and saturday then sing in the choir on sunday. You can live life and party like a rockstar and still be on the church board or in a church ministry. Churches have become centers for so-called "social justice" and have become politically correct. There is not black and white; no naming sin as such. Instead sin is tolerated as merely being human and fallible. There is no hell, no judgement for sin.

Fortunately I believe there will be a day when some churches finally wake up, shake off the dust, get back to the Bible and there will be a final great awakening.

Then why aren't Pentecostal churches bursting at the seams? We believe in the infilling of the Spirit, our churches are alive, lives are changed, etc. etc. We lose people just as quickly as other churches do. Our teenagers are hitting the door just as quickly as the ones at the other churches.

I don't personally think Noah and the Ark is what's keeping them out, either, but something is missing. Something more than just lack of 'power' and 'changed lives'.



(I personally think what is missing is true relationship with Jesus....somehow a lot of people just aren't getting that)