Huntley tonite: Acts 2:38 is the Only Gospel

[Sam]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Yes, according to Paul...

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

He was justified before circumcision...

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

I know its hard to accept faith in Christ as the only path to God, but it's really not complicated. Once we are saved and married to Christ, our faith produces good works pleasing to the Lord.

Don't Paul in Romans and James in his epistle address faith from two different viewpoints? Paul in Romans addresses faith from God's viewpoint. He sees the heart and the instant a person believes the person is justified. James addresses faith from man's standpoint. Man looks upon the outward appearance and cannot see the heart so the only way a human can see your faith is by your works. Abraham was justified by faith many years before he offered Isaac on the altar of sacrifice but the way we humans could see Abraham's faith was by his willingness to offer his son expecting God to raise him from the dead.

[Maximilian]

Regeneration bring forth fruit.

Faith brings forth works.

Faith brings forth obedience.

Faith is not, by definition, works or obedience. It is a prelude.

Salvation is God's prerogative. And in a broad sense of Scripture, his method of saving has not changed since the beginning.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Sam

Don't Paul in Romans and James in his epistle address faith from two different viewpoints? Paul in Romans addresses faith from God's viewpoint. He sees the heart and the instant a person believes the person is justified. James addresses faith from man's standpoint. Man looks upon the outward appearance and cannot see the heart so the only way a human can see your faith is by your works. Abraham was justified by faith many years before he offered Isaac on the altar of sacrifice but the way we humans could see Abraham's faith was by his willingness to offer his son expecting God to raise him from the dead.

They absolutley do.

Paul is talking about the inclusiveness of Grace (Jews and Gentiles), while James is exhorting his readers on toward discipleship, mature believers who bring forth good fruit.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Would Abe have been justified if he had not obeyed and carried out what God had commanded?

1)As StaySharp pointed out, the bible clearly says Abraham was justified before circumcision.

2) In specific answer to your question, I would say if Abraham would have REFUSED circumcision it would have been proof that He didn't really have saving faith, so in a way, you could say that Abraham wouldn't have been justified if he had not obeyed.

But the fact that he DID obey is evidence that He had long before had a genuine repentant saving faith, which in time to come manifested itself in total submission and obedience to God.

I think the same thing applies today. I believe the sinner is justiifed by faith at repentance, but I as a human cannot know for sure if that repentance and faith is genuine. That faith should be followed by water baptism. Not as a saving work, but as evidence of true faith. If someone says they have faith but they refuse to be baptized, I believe it is legitimate to question whether or not they have faith. And if they would claim to have faith, it would certainly seem to be the type of faith James is condemning, namely dead faith.

Were justified by faith, and the faith which justifies always manifest itself in obedience to Jesus Christ.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

1)As StaySharp pointed out, the bible clearly says Abraham was justified before circumcision.

2) In specific answer to your question, I would say if Abraham would have REFUSED circumcision it would have been proof that He didn't really have saving faith, so in a way, you could say that Abraham wouldn't have been justified if he had not obeyed.

But the fact that he DID obey is evidence that He had long before had a genuine repentant saving faith, which in time to come manifested itself in total submission and obedience to God.

I think the same thing applies today. I believe the sinner is justiifed by faith at repentance, but I as a human cannot know for sure if that repentance and faith is genuine. That faith should be followed by water baptism. Not as a saving work, but as evidence of true faith. If someone says they have faith but they refuse to be baptized, I believe it is legitimate to question whether or not they have faith. And if they would claim to have faith, it would certainly seem to be the type of faith James is condemning, namely dead faith.

Were justified by faith, and the faith which justifies always manifest itself in obedience to Jesus Christ.

I've been in ministry 25 years and have never met anyone claiming salvation that didn't want to be baptized. As a matter of fact, they usually ask first.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Regeneration bring forth fruit.

Faith brings forth works.

Faith brings forth obedience.

Faith is not, by definition, works or obedience. It is a prelude.

Salvation is God's prerogative. And in a broad sense of Scripture, his method of saving has not changed since the beginning.

Exactly
Under His shed blood.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by staysharp

I've been in ministry 25 years and have never met anyone claiming salvation that didn't want to be baptized. As a matter of fact, they usually ask first.

What shall we do?

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by staysharp

I've been in ministry 25 years and have never met anyone claiming salvation that didn't want to be baptized. As a matter of fact, they usually ask first.

exactly

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by staysharp

I've been in ministry 25 years and have never met anyone claiming salvation that didn't want to be baptized. As a matter of fact, they usually ask first.

In these 25 years have you been in a Apostolic/Pentecostal church? If so then the reason you "never met anyone claiming salvation that want to be baptized" is possibly because most of the sermons preached in these churches talk about baptism. So if someone hears nothing but sermons on baptism then it stands to reason that they might want to be baptized because that is all that they have been hearing. Just a thought.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

1)As StaySharp pointed out, the bible clearly says Abraham was justified before circumcision.

2) In specific answer to your question, I would say if Abraham would have REFUSED circumcision it would have been proof that He didn't really have saving faith, so in a way, you could say that Abraham wouldn't have been justified if he had not obeyed.

But the fact that he DID obey is evidence that He had long before had a genuine repentant saving faith, which in time to come manifested itself in total submission and obedience to God.

I think the same thing applies today. I believe the sinner is justiifed by faith at repentance, but I as a human cannot know for sure if that repentance and faith is genuine. That faith should be followed by water baptism. Not as a saving work, but as evidence of true faith. If someone says they have faith but they refuse to be baptized, I believe it is legitimate to question whether or not they have faith. And if they would claim to have faith, it would certainly seem to be the type of faith James is condemning, namely dead faith.

Were justified by faith, and the faith which justifies always manifest itself in obedience to Jesus Christ.

2) In specific answer to your question, I would say if Abraham would have REFUSED circumcision it would have been proof that He didn't really have saving faith, so in a way, you could say that Abraham wouldn't have been justified if he had not obeyed.

This is true. Abraham would not have been justified if he had not obeyed. Other examples of those having faith also show that action, on their part, accompanied their faith. Faith alone does not save us.

Hebrews 11:

Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice.
Enoch was translated because he had a testimony that he pleased God.
He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Noah prepared an ark.
Abraham, not knowing where he was going, obeyed and went out to the place he would receive as an inheritance.
Sarah conceived a child by faith. (action taken on her part )
Abraham offered up his only son.
Issac blessed Jacob and Esau.
Jacob blessed Joseph's sons.
Moses hid by his parents.
Moses refused to be called the son of Pharoah.
Moses forsook Egypt.
Moses kept the passover.
Moses passed through the Red Sea.
Israel compassed the walls of Jericho.
Rahab received the spies with peace.

Through faith action was taken - subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouth of lions, etc...

Faith is a requirement that also demands obedience - Mark 16:16; Acts 6:7; Romans 10:16

Abraham is a beautiful example of what the Hebrews would later come to find out - "For the law made nothing perfect." (Heb. 7:19) and that having a shadow of things to come could never, with those sacrifices, make the comers perfect." (Heb. 10:1) Abraham preaches faith being the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things not seen. His "obedient" faith is what brought the justification. In other words, his faith caused him to be obedient. And this faith would, eventually, also include the Gentiles outside the Law.

My only other thought would be that "repentance" is an acknowledgment for our error and sin. It is a compunction of guilt and a reversal from sin in our lives.

It is much like in II Cor 7:10, Paul speaks to the Corinthian church, "For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation..." He is saying that their acknowledgment of sin was good in that it points them into the direction of being saved.

Having said that, I see in Romans 6:4, that we are buried with Jesus Christ by baptism into death and that like Christ, we will also be raised to walk into "newness of life".

Now, my question - If we are already saved by "repentance", why does Romans 6:4 say that baptism causes us to be raised to walk in "newness of life"?

That should have happened at repentance, according to your view, if we are being saved at repentance.