Lost Souls/Demons

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Hell Fire is a catholic myth. The only "hell fire" is the lake of fire which death and the grave will be cast into

The word translated hell in your KJV is actually hades, the place of the dead or the grave, not a place of torment

Luke 16:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Sound doctrine.

[bbyrd009]

Hmm, I thought that was "Sheol," there...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Luke 16:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Sound doctrine.

Luk 16:19 "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
Luk 16:21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'
Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house--
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

The is a parable. Let's examine for a second some facts.
These men are dead. Their bodies are buried and decayed so if they exist they exist in spirit form.

So where ever they exist it must not be a physical world with physical needs

The poor man was nor buried but carried by angels to be with Abraham, contrary to what happens when everyone dies, they are buried.

The rich man was just buried

In Hades the rich man now has super vision for he can see all the way to where Abraham is

There is water, for some odd reason, in this spirit place.

The rich man specifically asks for Lazarus to dip his finger thus extending the antagonist and protagonist of the story even to the grave.

The rich man is thirsty and believes the water where Lazarus is will satisfy him. Apparently it would be possible for lazarus to dip his finger in water, take a drop of it over to where the rich man is in torment, and drip that one drop of water into his mouth.

BUT then mentioned later, the reason he can't is there is a huge chasm between them, as if the Rich man could not see that yet he can see Abraham over there

Then they, the dead, continue this conversation now about sending Lazarus of all people, back. No mention that this is impossible to do.

Solomon says the dead know nothing.

I ask, does it make sense to take people OUT of a fiery torment and then toss them into a NEW place of fiery torment? When they are already being tormented?

And why if they have not been judged yet? Punishment is a legal sentence upon being judged.

No this is a parable to teach a greater truth as all parables are

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The is a parable. Let's examine for a second some facts.
These men are dead. Their bodies are buried and decayed so if they exist they exist in spirit form.

Amen.

So where ever they exist it must not be a physical world with physical needs

Correct. They exist in a spiritual reality.

The poor man was not buried but carried by angels to be with Abraham, contrary to what happens when everyone dies, they are buried.

*ALERT* The poor man DIED. In the ancient Jewish culture the listeners would have been aghast at what deplorable state the man died in seeing that his burial isn’t even mentioned. The poor man was most likely not even buried because he was poor. The poor and unclaimed often had their bodies cast into Gehinnom to be burned. The text then states that the poor man was carried by angels to be with Abraham. Angels are spiritual beings without natural bodies. Therefore, we can safely say that the angels are carrying the poor man’s spirit to be with Abraham.

The rich man was just buried

With regards to his body, yes.

In Hades the rich man now has super vision for he can see all the way to where Abraham is.

No supervision needed. Abraham was far off, but obviously close enough to communicate with. A gulf can be much like a cleft in the rock dividing regions. For example,

http://www.rccggpselpaso.org/cleft.jpg

There is water, for some odd reason, in this spirit place.

The passage doesn’t tell us that there is water in this place. It only states that the rich man being in torments requests that Lazarus be allowed to dip his finger in water (something the rich man remembers from earth that would satisfy this sense of burning) and cool his tongue.

The rich man specifically asks for Lazarus to dip his finger thus extending the antagonist and protagonist of the story even to the grave.

True.

The rich man is thirsty and believes the water where Lazarus is will satisfy him.

The rich man is in fiery torments. Any chance of relief no matter how small is being pleaded for. He’s not just “thirsty”.

Apparently it would be possible for lazarus to dip his finger in water, take a drop of it over to where the rich man is in torment, and drip that one drop of water into his mouth.

How so? My son pleaded for me to make the pain go away when he busted up his elbow. Just because someone pleads for something… it doesn’t mean it’s possible.

BUT then mentioned later, the reason he can't is there is a huge chasm between them, as if the Rich man could not see that yet he can see Abraham over there

If we were camping on the edge of a cliff and awakened to being trapped and surrounded by a forest fire, we might see comrades who camped on an opposing cliff and scream for them to help us… even though we are aware of the chasm. We’d be essentially screaming for our lives, hoping THEY might find a way to help. It’s not rocket science.

Then they, the dead, continue this conversation now about sending Lazarus of all people, back. No mention that this is impossible to do.

Desperate people in agony often plead for the impossible. Abraham wasn’t going to get into a debate regarding what was possible or impossible. Abraham explained that the rich man’s brothers have the OT, let them heed the OT warnings. Because if they will not believe Moses and the Prophets… they’ll not believe even if one arose from the dead.

Solomon says the dead know nothing.

I assume you’re talking about this verse:

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

All this means is that we are to do all we can in this life… because there is no work, planning, things to learn, or wisdom regarding this life to be gained in Hell (Hades).

I ask, does it make sense to take people OUT of a fiery torment and then toss them into a NEW place of fiery torment? When they are already being tormented?

Yes. For example, we arrest people and place them in jail until trial. After their trail they face their prison sentence. Everyone will await their “day in court” wherein they will face judgment and sentencing; the wicked wait that day in torments, the righteous in spiritual bliss, resting in the presence of God.

And why if they have not been judged yet? Punishment is a legal sentence upon being judged.

Again: incarceration, trial, sentencing, sentence.

No this is a parable to teach a greater truth as all parables are.

We agree here. I do see a greater truth here. I see this as being about the spiritually impoverished Gentile Elect vs. the Jews who had a rich spiritual heritage. The Jews will one day find themselves in torments, being cut off from God, praying that someone return to warn their brethren of the Hell that awaits them. Yet, they have Moses and the Prophets… and they will not believe them. And in truth, they will not believe even should one rise from the dead and warn them (which Jesus essentially proved).

However, a parable is only true in its truth. The truth of only needing faith the size of a mustard seed is only true because the mustard seed is truly one of the smallest of seeds. Jesus is essentially warning an entire nation about Hell’s reality and where they will stand.

I would also like to illustrate the common belief regarding Hades in Christ’s day to underscore my point. In the writings of Josephus we see an example of what was traditionally believed about Hades among the Jews:

"...Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners". ~ Josephus's Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades, paragraph 1". Retrieved 2007-07-11

Christ’s parable is a warning to an entire nation regarding Hell’s reality. Their rich spiritual heritage will not save them.

Now… I’m going to wax a bit literalist here. The spirit is essentially “energy”. A spirit can affect the environment and even materialize (as seen in the OT angels repeatedly). In more modern research a spiritual presence is believed to even affect electromagnetic fields and change the temperature in rooms. Energy is also subject to the environment. Therefore, so are spirits. Christ’s teaching regarding unclean spirits walking through “dry places” seeking “rest” illustrates this. Now, let’s take this even further. Imagine the spirits of the damned being condemned to a subterraneous region deep beneath the earth’s surface… perhaps so deep… they are subject to the great heat, fire, and magma. The ancients had no idea that the core of our world was molten hot iron and nickel. Yet they believed in a hellish reality beneath earth’s surface. Also, many who are not skilled with the supernatural don’t realize that spiritual realities overlap, especially on the material plane. Heaven and Hell can coexist in the same spatial location (the same way thousands of spirits can be in one person). Each reality, Heaven and/or Hell, can exist essentially in the same spatial location oblivious of one another… or even aware of one another given attunement. We see this in the Revelation (Revelation 14:10).

The fundamental philosophy of the position you’re espousing here, Prax, is essentially a materialistic Christian Humanist position. There are non-material realities. God is a living and conscious non-material reality. Angels and demons are living and conscious non-material realties. Even Satan himself is a non-material living and conscious reality. Evidently in your view, man is no higher than the animals, having no non-material reality to his nature. (The non-material reality of animals can be debated also.) However, the human “soul” (mind) is indeed a non-material reality that produces thoughts, more non-material realities. You’re theory assumes that without the material part of man… the non-material reality of the mind ceases to exist upon death… until reawakened. Congratulations, that’s one step away from materialistic atheism. Death = Lights out. Wrong. Near death experiences where in people have been consciously aware of their surroundings, individuals, decorations, clothing and jewelry medics were wearing testifies that a very real and conscious reality does exist apart from the material body. Testimonies of seeing angels, demons, God (the Light), fields, dead loved ones, etc. also testify against this notion of theistic-materialism. I categorically reject it as false doctrine.

Now, you’re a great guy Prax on a personal level. But this teaching isn’t something I can buy given my own experiences and what I see in the testimony of Scripture. You can believe it if you wish… but I don’t buy it.

[Aquila]

As I said before...

Luke 16:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Sound doctrine.

[Arphaxad]

Rev 20:14-Death and Hades(hell) cast into the lake of fire.

obviously no one is burning yet.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

Rev 20:14-Death and Hades(hell) cast into the lake of fire.

obviously no one is burning yet.

Luke 16:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

In today's world people are arrested, placed in jail, await trial, are tried, found guilty, sentenced, and sent to prison.

Same deal.

All Rev 20:14 is saying is that those in Hades are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire after their judgment.

[Arphaxad]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Luke 16:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

In today's world people are arrested, placed in jail, await trial, are tried, found guilty, sentenced, and sent to prison.

Same deal.

All Rev 20:14 is saying is that those in Hades are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire after their judgment.

so todays world is the same as bible days? btw there are some places in todays world where a person is arrested and sent straight to prison, no trial, nothing.
The US is vastly different than Israel of Bible days.

anyways what you are saying is "out of the frying pan, into the fire"?

[Michael The Disciple]

Isnt it a bit odd that God is not mentioned in Abrahams Bosom? And that the rich man PRAYED TO ABRAHAM?

I wonder where souls went before Abraham died and took the supervision of his bosom? Where did Noah and the rest go?

Comparing this section of scripture with the foundation of truth about death that had been laid in the writings of the Prophets already this seems to be a parable.

[Michael The Disciple]

Do we realize that at the last trumpet when Jesus comes to raise the dead that it is THEN that believers are set free from Hades?

51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written , Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55

Note in verse 55 where we see o grave where is your victory? The real greek word there is HADES. Check it out in the New King James.

On the day of the resurrection of the dead THEN Hades no longer has the victory.

In other words all Christians that have ever died are still in Hades awaiting the second coming when the dead are raised.

The typical doctrine of Catholics and Protestants is that when Christians die they go to Heaven in concious bless to their reward in Heaven.

Paul collapses that doctrine here in 1 Cor. 15:55