Almost saved- so near and yet so far

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Ok, so why does Hell/Eternal Torture, exist before the New Testament in other cultures/generations? The connection with Christianities Hell and with the Greek Hades is far too coincidental. The “Church” is known for embracing demonized concepts that surround Religion and Culture. The Jews did this, the Indians did it, and all Cultures do it.

I'm sorry, Socialite, but the magic appearance of Hell in the New Testament is a big problem with me. This is an inconsistent and strange shift in the entire spectrum of God's dealings with Humanity.

We honestly can't prove, nor do we know who will in FACT go there. It's nothing but a guess. I don’t believe Hell should be a struggle to understand. It’s way too graphic, horrible, and far too long, and as a weak and insecure human, I have a hard enough time dealing with what I can see.

The same is speculated about the Great Flood, tales of a Giant Whale swallowing a man and spitting him out in a great rescue, etc...

I can't answer all those questions -- though I can certainly speculate right along with the best of them. When Jesus used the word "Hell" (3 different forms), he most definitely was identifying with an idea they already knew or were aware of. While I don't believe in fire pit as the final estate for unbelieving people, I do believe in eternal separation -- described with terms as vivid as a fire pit.

To pick and choose what we like and understand in the NT is a dangerous game to start.

And you're right -- I can't prove who will in fact go there. I just know the lie of UR is a false hope. Our only hope is Christ.

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

In the final analysis, it will boil down to this:

One will most often base their relationship with God according to their experiences within their earthly family/social/professional relationships - and how they perceived and handled those relationships, especially in the areas of 'rewards and punishment' and the group dynamics of authority, influence and control.

This thread exposes the mind set that declares that being under (submitted to) the laws of religious men, one can earn their salvation and/or God's approval. Tat salvation is predicated on what one does and the manner in which those obligations are performed, rather than who you are in Christ Jesus, the fruit of your life and the Spirit that dwells within you (love with faith, peace, joy, etc), as expressed in one's daily life and in the 'good works' that were ordained for each called person of God to walk in...

I appreciate these sobering, very true words.

Attempting to elude sin is probably the best way to miss the salvation that is proclaimed in the gospel of Jesus Christ. If one is not careful, they may perceive Jesus as a great spiritual leader, teacher, and prophet; however, attempting to escape sin through one's own efforts is to ultimately deny Jesus as Savior.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by El Predicador

The next day they go before the judge and the following occurs

LOL

You guys are so wishy washy.

Remember about 3 weeks ago when you called me a "Modern Day John the Baptist"

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by El Predicador

The next day they go before the judge and the following occurs
EP's words in red
Jason's in blue:
Now thats what I call a zinger. LOL Revealing your elbows is "close to the edge" and hell just isn't worth a "beard".

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Your view of God is of one who rules with an iron fist, who is a dicator, and who is waiting to see if you put on a t-shirt so you can burn in hell with murders, theives, adulters, and the like.

I can imagine that conversation in the context of a conversation at the local county jail,
Q "So what are you in for?
A. Murder 1

guilty go to hell
Q. What about you?
A. Possesion and intent to distribute

Guilty go to hell

[the two look over to the new guy-obviously looking out of place]
Q. What are you here for?
A. multiple offenses, I didn't shave for 3 days, got hot while mowing the yard and rolled up my sleeves, revealing my ungodly elbows, and wore a brass watch from the local dollar store. Also, my wife will be arriving shortly, my child had some gum in her hair, and my wife had to use scissors to get it out. Captial offense where we're from.

You are condemned from your own mouth, since you knew it was a capital offense and you did it away. Unfortunately for you, in this court there is only one punishment for willful disobedience, go join the other two, and we will be waiting for your wife as well

[/COLOR]

So to boil it all down, your scared to death that if someone reveals their elbow or even cuts gum out of their little girls hair they will go to hell forever.

And your view of God seems to lack little of his true character, in your mind you have a God who is chomping at the bit to tell people "guilty, go to hell".

How sad. Thank God I don't have to go through life with that mental anguish anymore. "Oh, happy day"

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Socialite

The same is speculated about the Great Flood, tales of a Giant Whale swallowing a man and spitting him out in a great rescue, etc...

I can't answer all those questions -- though I can certainly speculate right along with the best of them. When Jesus used the word "Hell" (3 different forms), he most definitely was identifying with an idea they already knew or were aware of. While I don't believe in fire pit as the final estate for unbelieving people, I do believe in eternal separation -- described with terms as vivid as a fire pit.

To pick and choose what we like and understand in the NT is a dangerous game to start.

And you're right -- I can't prove who will in fact go there. I just know the lie of UR is a false hope. Our only hope is Christ.

As I have gotten older, many things which were told to me as a young man have come full circle. Promises didn't take place, people fell, ideas or prophecies disappeared, and prayers weren't answered.

I see more clearly than ever, an idea or concept can captivate an audience today, only to fall by the wayside many years from now. I have learned that absolutes in realms we can't see are a dangerous way to manipulate people.

I remember years ago seeing a painting of Jesus. Soon, whenever people would talk about Jesus I would see this picture in my mind. After time I found out that the picture in my mind was most likely, wrong. But I've asked myself; where did this picture come from? A man. It came from a person's perspective, a perspective subject to culture, upbringing, and a dogma in Faith.

Today, we have a Book called the Bible. This Book is based upon Texts that carry no originals. We don't even know who the Authors are. The New Testament, which is nothing but a series of copies, is written in Greek (language of the Romans and the birthing place of the Catholic Church), and, we MUST consider the picture which is being painted by whoever wrote these words down.

Who is responsible, who is the one portraying the idea, and from what era do these writings appear?

I am told by Men that I am to accept this Book as a Fact, and if I don't, I will pay the consequences. The picture which this Book paints is troubling. God throwing souls into Hell Fire is atrocious! It's beyond my comprehension, and is the best way to keep me in "Check" by those trying to control me in Faith. If I dare question this Book, my very soul will burn forever.

God never gave Man a Book in the beginning. He gave him a Garden and a wife. In this environment, a man was able to comprehend and adore His Creator. Today, I see the wisdom and beauty of such a simple existence, and I also see that Religion has destroyed this World with confusion, fear, and murder. The very first killing was over Faith, and this sad prelude has never stopped.

I don't want to disrespect anyone here; I only want to be honest. I'm weary in trying to convince myself that something is real, when it's not.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

As I have gotten older, many things which were told to me as a young man have come full circle. Promises didn't take place, people fell, ideas or prophecies disappeared, and prayers weren't answered.

I see more clearly than ever, an idea or concept can captivate an audience today, only to fall by the wayside many years from now. I have learned that absolutes in realms we can't see are a dangerous way to manipulate people.

I remember years ago seeing a painting of Jesus. Soon, whenever people would talk about Jesus I would see this picture in my mind. After time I found out that the picture in my mind was most likely, wrong. But I've asked myself; where did this picture come from? A man. It came from a person's perspective, a perspective subject to culture, upbringing, and a dogma in Faith.

Today, we have a Book called the Bible. This Book is based upon Texts that carry no originals. We don't even know who the Authors are. The New Testament, which is nothing but a series of copies, is written in Greek (language of the Romans and the birthing place of the Catholic Church), and, we MUST consider the picture which is being painted by whoever wrote these words down.

Who is responsible, who is the one portraying the idea, and from what era do these writings appear?

I am told by Men that I am to accept this Book as a Fact, and if I don't, I will pay the consequences. The picture which this Book paints is troubling. God throwing souls into Hell Fire is atrocious! It's beyond my comprehension, and is the best way to keep me in "Check" by those trying to control me in Faith. If I dare question this Book, my very soul will burn forever.

God never gave Man a Book in the beginning. He gave him a Garden and a wife. In this environment, a man was able to comprehend and adore His Creator. Today, I see the wisdom and beauty of such a simple existence, and I also see that Religion has destroyed this World with confusion, fear, and murder. The very first killing was over Faith, and this sad prelude has never stopped.

I don't want to disrespect anyone here; I only want to be honest. I'm weary in trying to convince myself that something is real, when it's not.

I could begin an entire thread on the fidelity of manuscripts, and how they stack up as chief among any other ancient writings in terms of earliest witnesses from the original manuscript, to the # of copies, etc. I could also go into how the preservation of the message is in the form of a holistic story and not necessarily nook and cranny details.

Without a Bible, we have of Jesus only what some historians wrote -- that is, if we want to accept their work as legitimate as well. So that leaves us not only without a painting of Jesus, but with no Jesus at all.

The Bible is not a religious idol -- at least it's not supposed to be. It's recordings by mortals of God's intervening in our world and life. It's continuing the story that began in Eden. Flawed men, inspired by their experience, writing and sharing. We too get to live in that Story.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I could begin an entire thread on the fidelity of manuscripts, and how they stack up as chief among any other ancient writings in terms of earliest witnesses from the original manuscript, to the # of copies, etc. I could also go into how the preservation of the message is in the form of a holistic story and not necessarily nook and cranny details.

Without a Bible, we have of Jesus only what some historians wrote -- that is, if we want to accept their work as legitimate as well. So that leaves us not only without a painting of Jesus, but with no Jesus at all.

The Bible is not a religious idol -- at least it's not supposed to be. It's recordings by morals of God's intervening in our world and life. It's continuing the story that began in Eden. Flawed men, inspired by their experience, writing and sharing. We too get to live in that Story.

You could but, you would be wasting your time, N4S believes he's enlightened, and He decides what's true and whats not. I've suggested that he should join the Jesus Seminar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I could begin an entire thread on the fidelity of manuscripts, and how they stack up as chief among any other ancient writings in terms of earliest witnesses from the original manuscript, to the # of copies, etc. I could also go into how the preservation of the message is in the form of a holistic story and not necessarily nook and cranny details.

Without a Bible, we have of Jesus only what some historians wrote -- that is, if we want to accept their work as legitimate as well. So that leaves us not only without a painting of Jesus, but with no Jesus at all.

The Bible is not a religious idol -- at least it's not supposed to be. It's recordings by mortals of God's intervening in our world and life. It's continuing the story that began in Eden. Flawed men, inspired by their experience, writing and sharing. We too get to live in that Story.

The Bible is a Book written by men, plain and simple. The Bible is also a Book of controversy, and it can basically become what you want it to become. We can proclaim all day long that "We Know the Truth", but others will flat out disagree with you, using Scripture to justify their stance. Over 30,000 Denominations on this Earth prove this. Agreement is impossible and unity unattainable.

For instance, the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill." This Commandment is pretty clear, at least with me. We are not supposed to kill. Then, Israel basically "Nukes" Amalek, killing every man, woman, child, baby, pregnant women, and animals, in God's Name. You can slice it and dice it, but the bottom line is, this was a mass slaughter of Humanity in the Name of Religion, better known as Genocide.

Today, we totally criticize and condemn what Hitler did to the Jews in the Holocaust, and I agree, this was mass murder. But, this historical slaughter of other Human Beings by the Jews is written down for all to see, and, the Wars and Killings didn't stop with Amalek; the march to conquer and divide thousands of years ago by God's People has the eerie tone of murder and blood.

Let's look at what the Bible says about Jesus; He stopped the stoning of a woman caught in Adultery, and commanded US to forgive and to be merciful. He said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” and pardoned a Thief in his dying breath. He reached for the poor, the hungry, and the lost, saying a man beating his chest in confession is more justified than a man walking the Strait and Narrow. He told us to love our enemies and that He came to this World to SAVE people, not destroy them. But in the end He will cast these same people into an Inferno of Torture if they don’t “Line Up”.

This is not only confusing, it’s contradicting. We are supposed to believe that you can be God’s Child today, but not tomorrow if you fail.

Christians today are falling for Religious "Smoke and Mirrors" and live by "Out of sight, Out of Mind." We hammer our pulpits with, "Saul was rebellious for not killing the King of Amalek", yet we wouldn't pull the trigger ourselves. We pat the sword bearer on the back, telling him, "GO AND KILL", while the Commandment to NOT kill is forgotten or justified because, "God told us to KILL".

Agreement within this Book will never happen and this disagreement continues to plague the World with Denominal Faith (We have it, you don't). There is an endless cycle of debate regarding what is truly expected of us (The Human Race), via the Bible, and the Populace of the World is scratching their head with what to do.

Think about the Apostolic Movement; Speak in tongues, yes or no? Baptism, yes or no? Hair on Women, long or short? Jewelry, yes or no? Paying Tithes, yes or no? TV, yes or no? Pants or dresses, yes or no? Drinking wine, yes or no? Facial hair, yes or no? Christmas, yes or no? The Sabbath, yes or no? The Godhead, Holiness, Salvation, Music, Divorce, Sin, the list never stops, and neither do the questions, all because of the Bible. One Church says this, another says that.

I see this problem as a Human Element that cannot be avoided, and that this Human Element is within this Book that we claim is God’s Voice. I honestly don’t know why we can’t seem to admit this. Maybe it's fear. Maybe peer pressure.

I’ve tried sharing with others that we MUST validate Truth by experience, not hearsay. God gave us this Life to gain a measurement that can validate what is real and what isn’t, and every time we step into the “Beyond” the loose cannon is unleashed! When I was in the Marines, firing the M16 and hitting the Bull’s-eye required focus and absolute awareness of the surrounding environment. Ignoring these would send the bullet into the oblivion of maybe.

When the target came out of the “Butts” with a white circle on the pole, a smile would glimmer across my face, knowing I was heading for another “Expert Badge” if I kept the facts in view. I intend to do this with my Walk with God. Socialite, I'm tired of the confusion and the Church playing upon my emotions where there is no black and white, and speculation is the rule.

[aegsm76]

"And though we or an angel from heaven"

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

"And though we or an angel from heaven"

So, what makes you right? These are the kinds of statments I'm talking about; trying to tap the emotion with speculation, not the facts.