The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

[Jason B]

It seems that the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, is gaining serious traction in apostolic circles. Maybe I am just arriving late to the party, but I'm seeing and hearing some rather alarming things from fairly prominent men.

Today I was listening to a sermon online which centered on the Lord's prayer and "Finacial Dominion." One of the main points of emphasis was that when Jesus used the word "debts" he really meant "finacial debts" or finacial obligations. I am floored by such statements.

I have seen preachers say somthing along the lines of "I wish people would throw money at me while I was preaching" and then people immediately start doing it.

I have recently heard (second hand, not with my own ears yet) that a pastor preached to his congregation that they ought to "make a covenant with this pastor" and encourage the members to enter into a covenant with him concerning their tithes.

of course this is just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm hardly attempting to make a long list here, just throwing out a few things to start a conversation.

What do you think? Do such things bother you? Do you just ignore them? Do you think that the Bible should be the final authority on all church doctrine and practice?

[Hoovie]

Do they bother me? Big time.

But I have only witnessed such a few times, fortunately.

Throwing money at the feet of a speaker is ridiculous. I simply would not be party to any such foolishness.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

It seems that the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, is gaining serious traction in apostolic circles. Maybe I am just arriving late to the party, but I'm seeing and hearing some rather alarming things from fairly prominent men.

Today I was listening to a sermon online which centered on the Lord's prayer and "Finacial Dominion." One of the main points of emphasis was that when Jesus used the word "debts" he really meant "finacial debts" or finacial obligations. I am floored by such statements.

I have seen preachers say somthing along the lines of "I wish people would throw money at me while I was preaching" and then people immediately start doing it.

I have recently heard (second hand, not with my own ears yet) that a pastor preached to his congregation that they ought to "make a covenant with this pastor" and encourage the members to enter into a covenant with him concerning their tithes.

of course this is just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm hardly attempting to make a long list here, just throwing out a few things to start a conversation.

What do you think? Do such things bother you? Do you just ignore them? Do you think that the Bible should be the final authority on all church doctrine and practice?

I'm surprised your surprised. This is the way things have always been taught when we were in the UPC during the 80's in Wisconsin.

As far as the bolded goes, if I ever heard a preacher say that I would probably throw an egg, Randy Johnson style, at him -then walk out.

[Sherri]

There have been a few times when someone was preaching in our services and someone felt to go up and lay an offering on the altar. It started a response and people kept coming and giving. There were times when I felt that it was a spirit of sacrificial giving that kind of swept through the place. It's not uncommon among charismatic circles, but it's still strange to me. It is VERY common among black churches. Anyway.........in our services, the money NEVER went to the preacher, but to the building fund or to some special need.

BUT for a preacher to make that statement is just goofy and self seeking. If it happens, it should be because God is moving on someone to give.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Sherri

BUT for a preacher to make that statement is just goofy and self seeking. If it happens, it should be because God is moving on someone to give.

I happen to know that preacher very well, and he's the least money-hungry person I've ever known. And most definitely not self-seeking.

Don't forget that sound-bites can be taken way out of context, and you can't judge someone or their ministry by one sound-bite.

[bbyrd009]

"Is the Bible our final authority for ALL church doctrine and practice?"

becomes too general a Q, I think, due to interpretation?

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I happen to know that preacher very well, and he's the least money-hungry person I've ever known. And most definitely not self-seeking.

Don't forget that sound-bites can be taken way out of context, and you can't judge someone or their ministry by one sound-bite.

Leaving aside the comments about tithing not being scriptural, or no designation for tithes being scripturally offered (aren't you supposed to tithe where you are spiritually fed, according to scripture?) I'd like to suggest that this quote, and the comment (maybe still) above this one, by Titus2woman, I believe? Points to the simple solution of judging each ministry by its fruit; a pretty simple task nowdays, despite any lack of disclosure. (well, lack of disclosure might be your first clue...)
May as well start with "that preacher?"

[Titus2woman]

Whoops!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

"Is the Bible our final authority for ALL church doctrine and practice?"

becomes too general a Q, I think, due to interpretation?

I believe it is a very vital question. If the Bible is NOT the final authority, then churches can condone anything that "works" which has become the way most American churches have church. As such we have Super Bowl parties in the church. Give away ipods, TV's, even cars at Easter service (you know-so the sinner is enticed to come, its all about evangelism),etc.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I'm surprised your surprised. This is the way things have always been taught when we were in the UPC during the 80's in Wisconsin.

As far as the bolded goes, if I ever heard a preacher say that I would probably throw an egg, Randy Johnson style, at him -then walk out.

Who carries eggs with them to church? Lol

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I happen to know that preacher very well, and he's the least money-hungry person I've ever known. And most definitely not self-seeking.

Don't forget that sound-bites can be taken way out of context, and you can't judge someone or their ministry by one sound-bite.

AQP many preachers have made similar statements, most notably is probably the youtube video where Creflo Dollar and Leroy Thompson are dancing in peoples money (check it out if you haven't seen it). That stuff is disgusting and ungodly, but its par for the course as far as that group is concerned. What is alarming is when apostolic men seem to buy into such theology. I'm just floored when I hear men who I believe to be students of the word teach such unbiblical concepts. I don't get it. Such was the case when I listened to an online sermon today, I couldn't believe what was being said or what scripture was being used to justify it.

For the record I didn't accuse anyone of being money hungry but I did question what priority sound Bible doctrine has in the 21st century apostolic church. It seems in some cases we're swallowing the arguments of prosperity preachers hook,line, and sinker. And I'm asking why? Why do we need the prosperity gospel modifed to fit apostolics? If we are going to be a restorationist movement then we shouldn't settle for cracker box theology. I'm speaking in a general sense, not specific, though my thread was based on specific things I've witnessed by eye or ear. Do you think the oneness movement at large is drifting towards TBN style name it and claim it?

I'm thinking such things as the shoe auction, tithing drives, waving money in the air, conference offerings where people are told if they don't give their families wil be destroyed (America on Fire in Dallas a few years back), and the charismatic trend to name drop God. "God spoke to me and said tell my people ......" and then they go into an appeal. Did/does God really tell them to say that? And if He didn't and they say He did aren't they false prophets? The "law" of sowing and reaping being applied so often to money, but rarely to choices we make in life, when Galatians 6 so plainly sets it in order "God is not mocked." "Let me see your checkbook and I can tell if you serve God or not." Hogwash.