Poll...Do you read books/articles on the Godhead

[TheLayman]

Greetings:

I realize that polls here are not "scientific" but I still believe they can be informative and provide interesting anecdotal evidence. With that in mind I may from time to time create a poll to gather information to chew on and that may be helpful, I'm not trying to be provocative.

With that in mind I have a question regarding how or if you have obtained information on theology/Christology proper (or...on the Godhead although I really don't like that ambiguous term). In other words on Oneness theology vs Trinitarian theology and so forth. Even if the subject bores you answer the poll would be of interest to me. If you do not identify as a Oneness Pentecostal could I kindly ask you to make that known if you do vote, it would be much appreciated. And if you do identify as Oneness you can vote without comment but if you would also like to share what books, articles, audios, and so forth you obtain information from that would be great too. Thanks in advance...oh, and please read the options carefully. (By the way, you are not identified in this poll when you vote).

Thanks,

TheLayman

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TheLayman

Greetings:

I realize that polls here are not "scientific" but I still believe they can be informative and provide interesting anecdotal evidence. With that in mind I may from time to time create a poll to gather information to chew on and that may be helpful, I'm not trying to be provocative.

With that in mind I have a question regarding how or if you have obtained information on theology/Christology proper (or...on the Godhead although I really don't like that ambiguous term). In other words on Oneness theology vs Trinitarian theology and so forth. Even if the subject bores you answer the poll would be of interest to me. If you do not identify as a Oneness Pentecostal could I kindly ask you to make that known if you do vote, it would be much appreciated. And if you do identify as Oneness you can vote without comment but if you would also like to share what books, articles, audios, and so forth you obtain information from that would be great too. Thanks in advance...oh, and please read the options carefully. (By the way, you are not identified in this poll when you vote).

Thanks,

TheLayman

Books I have read:
Tertullian's Against Praxeas; Hippolytus' Refutation of All Heresies (the extant segments, anyway); John Damascene's De Fide Orthodoxae; Aquinas' Summa Theologiae; Finney's Systematic Theology (both editions) as well as numerous sermons/lectures by him; Gregory Boyd's Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity (also, God of the Possible); Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ, and his Case for Faith; James White's The Forgotten Trinity; Stanley Horton's edition of Systematic Theology; James Dunn's Christology in the Making and The Christ and the Spirit: Pneumatology; numerous other writings by trinitarian authors on the subjects of theology and Christology, as well as non-trinitarian authors such as Servetus' The Errors of the Trinity, David Bernard's The Oneness of God, History of Christian Doctrine Vol 1, and Oneness and Trinity AD 100-300, Ross Drysdale's If Ye Know These Things, among others by Oneness authors, as well as books and booklets and articles by Arian's, SDAs, JWs, and other non-trinitarian writers.

Have also listened to or read various debates on theology and Christology by trinitarians, Arians, Unitarians, Oneness, binitarians, Armstrongites, and others.

[jfrog]

Not oneness but was. When I was oneness read a lot more on the godhead than now.

[bkstokes]

I occasionally read about it now. I used to read about it a lot more. However, I have not studied it to the degree of Esaias.

[TheLayman]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Books I have read:
Tertullian's Against Praxeas; Hippolytus' Refutation of All Heresies (the extant segments, anyway); John Damascene's De Fide Orthodoxae; Aquinas' Summa Theologiae; Finney's Systematic Theology (both editions) as well as numerous sermons/lectures by him; Gregory Boyd's Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity (also, God of the Possible); Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ, and his Case for Faith; James White's The Forgotten Trinity; Stanley Horton's edition of Systematic Theology; James Dunn's Christology in the Making and The Christ and the Spirit: Pneumatology; numerous other writings by trinitarian authors on the subjects of theology and Christology, as well as non-trinitarian authors such as Servetus' The Errors of the Trinity, David Bernard's The Oneness of God, History of Christian Doctrine Vol 1, and Oneness and Trinity AD 100-300, Ross Drysdale's If Ye Know These Things, among others by Oneness authors, as well as books and booklets and articles by Arian's, SDAs, JWs, and other non-trinitarian writers.

Have also listened to or read various debates on theology and Christology by trinitarians, Arians, Unitarians, Oneness, binitarians, Armstrongites, and others.

Hello Esaias,

It's been awhile and some rough mileage along the way so forgive me for not remembering but you are a pastor, correct? The reason I ask is I was wondering if you found any of your studies particularly helpful in what you teach.

Also, and perhaps of even more interest to me is did you have any ah-hah moments where the light came on and you understood something differently or understood something you simply didn't understand before? (I always want to remind others that suddenly having an epiphany where you go, "Oh, I understand what you are saying, or I understand what you mean now, or I see why you say that is not necessarily agreeing...but you can't really disagree until you understand, understand?)

I'll post more on this in the debate section but I'm working on a book (that doesn't mean I'll ever finish but it is underway). As I explain in the beginning of it, the book is neither an apologetic or a polemic because for the most part I think either would be wasted. The reason being is unlike any other two groups I don't think Oneness and Trinitarians understand each other. What makes this even more remarkable and more frustrating is that they believe they do understand one another. So the purpose of the book is understanding as I don't think arguing for or against is very useful if you argue past each other. Will we agree with one another if we understand one another...not likely, but it's always nice to know that you are understanding and being understood. You can't have productive conversations if you don't understand one another.

Thanks for your answer and it looks like about 6% of the people who viewed the question voted that they do study the subject at least some which is not bad.

Thanks again,
TheLayman

[TheLayman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Not oneness but was. When I was oneness read a lot more on the godhead than now.

Thanks for the info jfrog. A couple of questions none of which you have to answer. If you do not identify as Oneness now may I ask what you would identify as? And is there any reason you can put your finger on as to why you read more on the Godhead than now?

Thanks jfrog,
TheLayman

[TheLayman]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

I occasionally read about it now. I used to read about it a lot more. However, I have not studied it to the degree of Esaias.

Did you find anything that stood out in what you read? Do you think you good understanding of Trinitarian theology/Christology? (I should have asked Esaias and jfrog that also). If so is there one or two resources that were especially helpful?

Thanks BKS,
TheLayman

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TheLayman

Hello Esaias,

It's been awhile and some rough mileage along the way so forgive me for not remembering but you are a pastor, correct? The reason I ask is I was wondering if you found any of your studies particularly helpful in what you teach.

I have been greatly helped in teaching and understanding things, mostly by the ANF writings and early medieval writings (they give the greatest depth of thought compared to later writers, with the exception of Finney and Aquinas, both of whom I consider genuises). Also, Dunn, he's a very capable writer. On the Oneness side, although Bernard is also a capable writer, I find his style more like a business attorney's 'technical writing': he's good for a concise presentation of basic facts, but honestly his writings don't get too 'deep'. Of course, I find that to be true of MOST modern authors, regardless of genre or position.

Also, and perhaps of even more interest to me is did you have any ah-hah moments where the light came on and you understood something differently or understood something you simply didn't understand before? (I always want to remind others that suddenly having an epiphany where you go, "Oh, I understand what you are saying, or I understand what you mean now, or I see why you say that is not necessarily agreeing...but you can't really disagree until you understand, understand?)

Certainly there were 'ah-ha' moments. Understand, though, that I was not raised Oneness. I had what I believe to be an 'epiphany' concerning the identity of Jesus Christ, based first of all on my experiencing what I later discovered was called 'the baptism with the Holy Spirit' followed closely by an itinerant unpaid evangelist showing me three verses - Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 28:19, and Acts 2:38. He was trying to show me 'why we baptise in Jesus' name' without directly referencing the Oneness issue but it hit me like a bolt of lightning and confirmed my initial impression, that when I had my 'experience' it was JESUS CHRIST who took up residence inside my heart.

So, in reading trinitarian writings I had many 'ah-ha' moments concerning what the doctrine is and what it affirms and it's necessary conclusions, it's development over time, and it's role in the larger context of general theology and doctrine. I also had several 'ah-ha' moments as I discovered that most people I met in real life, who would claim to be 'trinitarian', really do not understand what the doctrine is. There seems to be a popular concept of 'the trinity', and then a distinct theologian's concept of the trinity, and the two do not always jive together.

I also have come to believe that a lot of the disagreements between trinitarians and Oneness believers are a matter of semantics. Not ALL of the differences, mind you, but a lot of them. There are some very fundamental differences that, to my mind, do not seem capable of reconciling together between the two views.

I'll post more on this in the debate section but I'm working on a book (that doesn't mean I'll ever finish but it is underway). As I explain in the beginning of it, the book is neither an apologetic or a polemic because for the most part I think either would be wasted. The reason being is unlike any other two groups I don't think Oneness and Trinitarians understand each other. What makes this even more remarkable and more frustrating is that they believe they do understand one another. So the purpose of the book is understanding as I don't think arguing for or against is very useful if you argue past each other. Will we agree with one another if we understand one another...not likely, but it's always nice to know that you are understanding and being understood. You can't have productive conversations if you don't understand one another.

Thanks for your answer and it looks like about 6% of the people who viewed the question voted that they do study the subject at least some which is not bad.

Thanks again,
TheLayman

I agree most trinitarians do not understand Oneness, although I think a larger percentage of Oneness believers understand - somewhat - trinitarianism, because many if not most Oneness believers were at one time trinitarian.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TheLayman

Did you find anything that stood out in what you read? Do you think you good understanding of Trinitarian theology/Christology? (I should have asked Esaias and jfrog that also). If so is there one or two resources that were especially helpful?

Thanks BKS,
TheLayman

I believe I have as good a grasp of trinitarian theology and Christology as most any trinitarian these days, but then again I also believe the trinitarian theology is inherently non-understandable in some ways. Some might call that paradoxical, some might call it contradictory. But I think it needs to be kept in mind that most if not all trinitarian theologians begin with the presupposition that 'the trinity is a great mystery that cannot be fully comprehended or understood'.

I love how Finney put it: "One cannot have faith in or believe anything except so far as he/she understands it. Thus, I can believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, and that there is only one God, because I can understand all four of those affirmations. But HOW the three can be three, and yet One, I understand not, and therefore can have no opinion on, and no faith or belief in regards to, any supposed mechanics of the Divine economy." - paraphrased, from his Lectures in Systematic Theology.

[Esaias]

BTW, the BEST writings on trinitarian theology are Damascene's De Fide, and Aquinas' Summa. Everything else is just rehash.

Although, I have not read Augustine's treatise on the Trinity yet, I have heard he has some insights into the doctrine not expressed elsewhere.

His 'On Christian Doctrine' is his best work imo, although his Confessions were the most touching.