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Old 01-29-2016, 02:07 AM
Israelarb Israelarb is offline
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Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

Can anyone help explain a bit exactly what the Eastern Orthodox view of the trinity is? From what I understand they only believe in the economic trinity and not the ontological trinity... I don't remember where but I read from an Oneness author that the economic trinity without the ontological belief is pretty close to what we believe or that we can define the three manifestations or modes as an economic trinity... Can't remember exactly what he wrote.
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Old 01-29-2016, 09:16 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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Originally Posted by Israelarb View Post
Can anyone help explain a bit exactly what the Eastern Orthodox view of the trinity is? From what I understand they only believe in the economic trinity and not the ontological trinity... I don't remember where but I read from an Oneness author that the economic trinity without the ontological belief is pretty close to what we believe or that we can define the three manifestations or modes as an economic trinity... Can't remember exactly what he wrote.
Eastern Orthodox believe exactly as expressed by the Councils of the first seven Ecumenical Councils, the Nicean Creed, and the writings of the 'Church Fathers'. John of Damascus wrote his 'De Fide Orthodoxae' ('The Orthodox Faith') as a clear exposition of the Orthodox doctrine, and it is definitely an ontological trinity which he presents.

It is the Eastern Orthodox who, in their holy icons, represent the Triune God as three guys sitting around a table.

They are more classically trinitarian than most Roman Catholics.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:02 PM
Israelarb Israelarb is offline
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Eastern Orthodox believe exactly as expressed by the Councils of the first seven Ecumenical Councils, the Nicean Creed, and the writings of the 'Church Fathers'. John of Damascus wrote his 'De Fide Orthodoxae' ('The Orthodox Faith') as a clear exposition of the Orthodox doctrine, and it is definitely an ontological trinity which he presents.

It is the Eastern Orthodox who, in their holy icons, represent the Triune God as three guys sitting around a table.

They are more classically trinitarian than most Roman Catholics.
Ahh ok thanks!
Just asking because there are many articles about Sabellius having the concept of an economic trinity... That God is numerically one and how each of the 3 modes were a different function or role which is not an immanent trinity but only an economic trinity. Would be be accurate?

Not saying he was a trinitarian but that Orthodox trinitarians would describe him as having a trinity without the ontological part of it....
Aaaaaaand.....I'm not trying to mix trinitarian ideology with oneness by the way, hope that's not what anyone's thinking lol
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:17 PM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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Old 01-29-2016, 02:39 PM
Israelarb Israelarb is offline
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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Sorry for my ignorance bro! Honestly just trying to learn even if what I ask sounds or is dumb :P
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Old 01-29-2016, 03:20 PM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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Sorry for my ignorance bro! Honestly just trying to learn even if what I ask sounds or is dumb :P
oh, not at all--the "trinny" thing at the end just struck me funny.

i think Eastern Christianity is interesting, myself; it helped reveal to me the reason for not worshipping icons.
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:30 PM
Israelarb Israelarb is offline
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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oh, not at all--the "trinny" thing at the end just struck me funny.

i think Eastern Christianity is interesting, myself; it helped reveal to me the reason for not worshipping icons.
Oooh haha ok I see
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Old 01-29-2016, 08:56 PM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

One of these days I am going to visit an Eastern Orthodox Church, just to look around.
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:29 PM
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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Originally Posted by Israelarb View Post
Ahh ok thanks!
Just asking because there are many articles about Sabellius having the concept of an economic trinity... That God is numerically one and how each of the 3 modes were a different function or role which is not an immanent trinity but only an economic trinity. Would be be accurate?

Not saying he was a trinitarian but that Orthodox trinitarians would describe him as having a trinity without the ontological part of it....
Aaaaaaand.....I'm not trying to mix trinitarian ideology with oneness by the way, hope that's not what anyone's thinking lol
Tertullian was an Economic Trinitarian

The Economic Trinity does not necessarily not include the idea of three persons

http://www.gotquestions.org/economic-Trinity.html
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Old 02-04-2016, 10:05 PM
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Re: Eastern Orthodox Trinity Thought?

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
One of these days I am going to visit an Eastern Orthodox Church, just to look around.
If it is a 'traditional' EO church you will b doing a lot of standing around, as they don't use pews or chairs. The only EO churches that use pews or chairs seem to be American EO churches, specifically Orthodox Church of America (OCA) churches, which primarily consist of former Anglicans, Roman Catholics, an evangelicals who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Get ready for icon worship, too, they love them some icons!

If you find one to visit ask someone for some paperwork that explains the format of the service. They have a very specific 'order of worship' and each part has a specific meaning and purpose, depending on what day you visit, whether it is a vespers or matins ('orthros') service, what feast day it is (I think just about every day in the calendar is some kind of feast day for them, lol), etc.

The basic outline though for all services is as follows:

1. Entrance. The priest enters the sanctuary and I believe a hymn will be sung.
2. Lots of prayers and hymns, incense burning, etc.
3. The Gospel Book will be presented and paraded, followed by a reading (chanted if the priest is not a newbie) and possibly a sermon ('homily').
4. Some more praying and hymn singing.
5. The priest and deacons will prepare the bread and wine at the altar with lots more praying and hymn singing. He will also wave his hands around over the bread and wine.
6. Serving the bread and wine (they take the bread and drop it into the cup, mixing it, then spoon it out into people's mouths). Only baptised Orthodox are supposed to take communion. Although I think they may (depends on the church) allow Eastern Rite Byzantine catholics to partake. Also, you are supposed to be fasting prior to communion so there may be several people there who do not take communion (since they weren't fasting).
7. Serving of 'antidoron' (blessed bread). This is bread that is distributed to everyone (guests included) as a sign of fellowship and friendship. There may also be some cheese and stuff to go around, depends on the church and the occasion.

Most praying is done standing. In fact, in traditional EO churches, EVERYTHING is done standing, only old women and babies are supposed to be sitting at any time.

Women will be expected to wear headcovering (unless it is a modernized OCA church, that is) and men will be expected to be bare-headed.

All singing is Byzantine chant (in one form or another, depending on the church). Similar to Gregorian chant but with a definitely more Eastern flavour to it. Greek chanting (true Byzantine or 'Constaniopolitan') has a definite middle eastern sound. Coptic (Egyptian Orthodox) sounds even more middle eastern. Syrian will probably be Arabic chanting. Russian, Romanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Polish, Ukrainian (!), and other slavic Orthodox churches will have chant that sounds more European, it's very beautiful and (imo) blows Gregorian chant away. Especially Romanian and Russian (Znamenny) chant.

Orthodox Church in America (OCA), while having roots in the Russian Orthodox Church, usually does everything in English. English Byzantine chant is still being developed. There are some really good developments (musically) in some places but a lot of priests and chanters in the OCA simply do not really understand Byzantine chant's musical structure so a lot of it sounds... off, I guess? But some of it sounds pretty good.

There will be lots of incense (more so than in a Roman Catholic service).

There will be several hymns and prayers to Mary.

There will be prayers and hymns to various departed saints (many of whom you have never heard of as they are local to the particular church's tradition and history).

They also do lots of bowing and making the sign of the cross.

There will be much ado about 'The Blessed Trinity'. Of all denominations out there, the EO are more trinitarian than any trinitarian church there is, bar none, in my opinion. The Trinity doctrine is actually weaved into practically everything they do and believe (that's the theory, anyway).

Most EO churches will conduct services in the language of the church - Greek Orthodox in Greek, Russian Orthodox in Russian, Serbian Orthodox in Serbian, Coptic Orthodox in Coptic, etc. But, as I said, OCA churches do things in English, and some Greek and Russian and Coptic churches in America do some, part, or perhaps even all of a service in English (depends on the demographics of the particular church).

Be advised, except for OCA churches, all EO churches are ethnic in origin, and many tend to be very conservative in that regards. They intentionally continue the language and many of the traditions of the 'mother country', they are a culture of their own. Thus, Greek Orthodox churches will be filled with Greeks, who speak Greek, who associate with Greeks, who work for other Greeks, etc etc. The Greeks and the Russians, for example, tend not to get along (both claim exclusive jurisdiction in America) on an ecclesiastical level. Although, I am sure the people themselves will be very friendly, though they may not speak English (especially the older folks) or may not choose to speak English.

Go forth, and report back.
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