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View Poll Results: Is the bible infallible?
The bible is infallible, perfect and consistent. 16 66.67%
The bible is true but inconsistent and needs to be reconciled. 6 25.00%
The bible is a good book, but has errors. 2 8.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 12-31-2011, 08:04 AM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Is The Bible Infallible?

I am not saying that the bible isn't true, but are there inconsistencies between authors of different books that need to be reconciled? For example, Jesus says, If they are not against me, they are for me. Yet Paul says, we should contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints. Should we follow Christ's command for Christian unity or Paul's command for unity of christian doctrine?

There are different teachings on divorce. Jesus says, save for the cause of fornication. Paul says an unbeliever is not not bound. Do we accept both statements as true or do we say the bible is not perfect?

Paul says, we are saved by faith not works. James says we are made righteous by our works. Who is right or are they both right? How do we reconcile these differences?

Here is a link of a lecture about this topic for those interested. http://www.ronmillersworld.org/watch...ristian-story/
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Last edited by Dedicated Mind; 12-31-2011 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:23 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

These topics you have brought up do not contradict themselves at all. We just have to read them in context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
I am not saying that the bible isn't true, but are there inconsistencies between authors of different books that need to be reconciled? For example, Jesus says, If they are not against me, they are for me. Yet Paul says, we should contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints. Should we follow Christ's command for Christian unity or Paul's command for unity of christian doctrine?
Jude
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

In context, the people of whom Jude was speaking about are actually AGAINST Christ. Notice that these people were referred to as MOCKERS, not having the Spirit. (Rom 8:9, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his). These people who crept into the church were DENYING our Lord Jesus Christ. And then Jude says we should not let that happen, we should contend for the faith. So in context, this does not go against what Jesus said as per "if they are for me, they are not against me."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
There are different teachings on divorce. Jesus says, save for the cause of fornication. Paul says an unbeliever is not not bound. Do we accept both statements as true or do we say the bible is not perfect?
1 Cor 7
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

What Jesus said does not contradict what Paul taught. Notice, with regards to believers, Paul said the Lord said the woman should not depart from the husband, but if she separates, she has to remain unmarried or go back to her husband.
Now, fornication is done outside of marriage. Therefore, Jesus saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce implies that the spouse had already been with someone else prior to marriage and the current marriage partner did not know about it. Hence, upon finding out, it is ground for divorce.


1 Cor 7
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

Paul did NOT say the UNBELIEVER is NOT bound (neither did he say the UNBELIEVER is bound). He said the BELIEVER is NOT bound if the unbeliever decides to leave. Remember that unbelievers ARE NOT required to live their lives in accordance with the scriptures. The scriptures are for believers. Notice, Paul said if the unbeliever does not leave, then the believing spouse should not leave. IOW, the divorce can only be initiated by the unbeliever.
Jesus' saying in Matt 19 is binding upon believers. Unbelievers DO NOT live their lives according to Jesus' sayings. So in context, these scriptures are in super harmony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
Paul says, we are saved by faith not works. James says we are made righteous by our works. Who is right or are they both right? How do we reconcile these differences?
First off, James is not even talking about how to get saved.

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James is NOT talking about how to be saved. He's talking about our lives as BELIEVERS. He's pretty much saying our works will show our faith. John made a similar statement in 1 John 3.

1 John 3
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

James and John are saying, we should walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Also, the context in which James uses the word "JUSTIFY" is a different context from where Paul used it.
James uses "JUSTIFY" as an act of showing something. Again, James is NOT talking about how to be saved.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


JUSTIFY in Paul's context is to declare WITHOUT sin (Imputed righteousness by God). Rom 3 to Rom 5 deals with this extensively.

Rom 5
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

jus·ti·fy   [juhs-tuh-fahy] Show IPA verb, -fied, -
fy·ing.
verb (used with object)
1. to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right: The end does not always justify the means.
2. to defend or uphold as warranted or well-grounded: Don't try to justify his rudeness.
3.Theology . to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.
4.Printing .
a.to make (a line of type) a desired length by spacing the words and letters, especially so that full lines in a column have even margins both on the left and on the right.
b.to level and square (a strike).

Paul used JUSTIFY in a different context. Paul and James do not contradict each other.

CONTEXT is very important while reading ANY book. For the bible, not only context, but illumination from the Holy Spirit is VERY NECESSARY.
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  #3  
Old 12-31-2011, 09:50 AM
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Lafon Lafon is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
I am not saying that the bible isn't true, but are there inconsistencies between authors of different books that need to be reconciled?
Have you also considered the possibility that it is within the manner that you understand the alleged inconsistencies, where the error is found, and which stands in need of being reconciled to the infallible truths of the Bible?

As for me, I see NO inconsistencies or contradictions which you alleged to exist between the instances noted, however, for me to sit here and attempt to provide you with a variety of other scriptural passages which serve to accomplish this would be a bit more than I would care to undertake at the moment. Suffice it to be said, if I should ever encounter any passage within the scriptural text which might appear to contradict that which is written in another that speaks of the same thing, then I am motivated to search until I am able to find a 2nd, 3rd or more passages which will serve to reconcile them all.

When experiencing difficulties in my efforts to reconcile what, at first glance, might seem to be contradictory statements of the scriptures, and after expending what I believe is sufficient time in studying, prayer, and fasting in an effort to reconcile such, then my final avenue is to suspend all other activities and go directly to its Author, petitioning Him for the answer.... after all, it is His sacred written Oracles, is it not? He should (and does) know where the truth prevails; and so I simply await hearing His response. I am most pleased to report that He has never failed me yet!

In summation, I am hold to the belief that there are NO contradictions or inconsistencies to be found within any of the scriptural text; and if it be that I should ever find one, then I would feel it needful for me to throw the entire Bible in the nearest trash bin and immediately set forth on a journey to find more perfect writings.... but alas, we both know that there are none! And so I will continue to rely, exclusively, upon the things recorded in that most sacred book ever published - the Holy Bible - for the things which I will allow to be the foundation of my belief in God.

Just my thoughts (tendered for what they might be worth).
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Old 12-31-2011, 10:42 AM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

tgbt, your explanations of christian unity and divorce sound reasonable, but your explanation of justification doesn't convince me of consistency. i'm not saying there isn't an explanation, just that your argument doesn't convince me.
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Old 12-31-2011, 10:52 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
tgbt, your explanations of christian unity and divorce sound reasonable, but your explanation of justification doesn't convince me of consistency. i'm not saying there isn't an explanation, just that your argument doesn't convince me.
ok...i don't see any inconsistency though.
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:01 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
tgbt, your explanations of christian unity and divorce sound reasonable, but your explanation of justification doesn't convince me of consistency. i'm not saying there isn't an explanation, just that your argument doesn't convince me.
But how do you see an inconsistency since Paul and James are not even discussing the same topic?
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:31 AM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

I think justification, and many other especially Biblical or spiritual concepts, must be understood in the context of their dual or even multiple natures, and should be discussed somewhat like blind men on an elephant~"over here, it is like this."
ha, like you are doing...

You can only, ever suspect, even expect, an incomplete understanding when meditating on any aspect of Scripture, I would also say, and while meditation is good, there is also a very definite sense in which a clearer understanding will only come by doing. We are even directed that we can't get all the way There, to paraphrase, with our intelligence--although you can use "wisdom, and knowledge." Hmm.

Last edited by bbyrd009; 12-31-2011 at 11:38 AM. Reason: flower out
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:28 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

I don't know how to answer this question. I think the Bible is the Word of God and infallible; I'm not completely convinced that there are no "errors" in the translation from original texts to present versions.

I do think that the message is preserved even if there are some translation issues, or maybe a few parts of it were left out when they tried to put all the pieces of the documents together to make the one book.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:03 PM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
But how do you see an inconsistency since Paul and James are not even discussing the same topic?
TGBT, v14 and 24 mention salvation and justification. I think james is talking about justification by works. I'm sure there is an explanation, I need to research it. It was just a subject that came up with biblical inerrancy.
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:39 PM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
I don't know how to answer this question. I think the Bible is the Word of God and infallible; I'm not completely convinced that there are no "errors" in the translation from original texts to present versions.

I do think that the message is preserved even if there are some translation issues, or maybe a few parts of it were left out when they tried to put all the pieces of the documents together to make the one book.
it is unavoidable that Kenites translations have appeared in Scripture; even the Bible says that "Kenites became scribes."

fortunately, most or all of these poor translations are pretty well known, even if some debate remains about some of the more contra ones.
"The earth became void," God is "against those who teach men to fly..." others, "women shouldn't chatter, gossip in church, etc. are all revealed, and especially easily now with the powerful bible engines out there, via lexicon, Strong's, context, et al, at the click of a mouse.

any passage that seems to be unclear or contradictory to another can now be more easily seen than ever.
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