Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-27-2011, 06:33 PM
Charnock's Avatar
Charnock Charnock is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,663
Who is Leading This Generation?

Who are the mosr influential men or women in the world of Oneness Pentecostalism today?
__________________
I'm (sic) not cynical, I just haven't been around long enough to be Jedi mind-tricked by politics as usual. Alas, maybe in a few years I'll be beaten back into the herd. tstew
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-27-2011, 06:40 PM
Timmy's Avatar
Timmy Timmy is offline
Don't ask.


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 24,212
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charnock View Post
Who are the mosr influential men or women in the world of Oneness Pentecostalism today?
In their own minds, or in reality?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty

More New Stuff in Timmy Talk!
My Countdown Counting down to: Rapture. Again.
Why am I not surprised?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-27-2011, 06:57 PM
Amanah's Avatar
Amanah Amanah is offline
This is still that!


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 9,623
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

TD Jakes comes to mind, wouldn't he be the most famous/influencial Oneness Pentecostal?

Seems to me that there is a huge movement to go the way of TD Jakes.

I wonder if there are more TD Jakesque Oneness Pentecostals then there are UPCers.

I guess what I would also like to know would be if there is some sort of ministerial alliance of TDJ OPs.

The next thing I would want to know is what will the next gen raised under a TDJesque OP ministry be?
__________________
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. ~Tolkien

Last edited by Amanah; 09-27-2011 at 07:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:17 PM
CC1's Avatar
CC1 CC1 is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,840
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

This thread poses a good question. 20 years ago it would have been easy for me to have made a list;

Nathianal Urshan
James Kilgore
Anthony Mangun
Kenneth Haney
David Barnard
Murrell Ewing
C.L. Dee's
T.L. Craft

and a few more I am sure I am missing. Having been only casually associated with UPC culture since then I don't know who are considered the most influential now other than the obvious;

David Barnard
Anthony Mangun
Paul Mooney
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"

Titus2woman on AF
F


"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:24 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

TD Jakes seems ashamed of Oneness teaching if what I have heard over time is true. If he promotes it good for him but Im not aware of instances where he does.

I certainly hope he is not the best Oneness has to offer.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:25 PM
Amanah's Avatar
Amanah Amanah is offline
This is still that!


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 9,623
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

I don't know that he is the best, but I'm pretty sure he is the most well known/influencial OP out there.
__________________
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. ~Tolkien
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:29 PM
Amanah's Avatar
Amanah Amanah is offline
This is still that!


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 9,623
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html


This popular preacher, also known as "Bishop Jakes," comes from a United Pentecostal background. He pastors The Potter's House (Dallas, Texas) one of America's fastest-growing megachurches. He is also a leader and elected bishop of the "Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies," a network of Oneness Pentecostal churches - though not identified as such at the T.D. Jakes Ministries web site:

In 1979, Pastor Jakes opened the doors of his first church located in a storefront facility in Montgomery, WV with only 10 members. The church eventually became known as The Temple of Faith and was affiliated with Ohio-based Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies, a Pentecostal organization that governs many churches of similar persuasion.
T.D. Jakes Ministries, (Accessed Mar. 3, 2000)

In "Christianity Today" recently, T.D. Jakes said "This small fellowship of churches is not a denomination, and differs in many ways from traditional Apostolic churches." No indication is given on how and where they differ.

Answers in Action - in a statement about Promise Keepers, says

(...) Promise Keepers speakers are not always theologically sound,biblically centered, mature Christian speakers. (For example, they have repeatedly promoted T. D. Jakes, a United Pentecostal pastor/evangelist who denies -- along with his denomination -- the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity and promotes baptismal regeneration.
Source: Pros and Cons of the Promise Keepers Movement

And Charisma Magazine, in an article supportive of Oneness Pentecostalism, notes:

(...) Because of recent upheaval in the UPC, many pastors have left to establish prominent independent Oneness churches. And many popular preachers in the black charismatic community--most notably T.D. Jakes of Dallas--have Oneness roots.

Source: "The Other Pentecostals," (PRO) Charisma Magazine

One of the "frequently-asked questions" posted on Jakes' web site is: "What has been your reception in the evangelical community?" Jakes Answers:

''I've had only one or two experiences where people had a problem accepting my diversity -- either racially or doctrinally. For some reason, God has just given me the grace to be able to sit on many different platforms.''
Questions for T.D. Jakes (Accessed Mar. 3, 2000)

Unfortunately, Jakes' doctrinal diversity appears to include classic Oneness Pentecostal Heresies, though - in an apparent effort to appeal to a wider audience - the usual Oneness theology is toned down somewhat at TD Jakes' official web site. See, for example, its statement on the Trinity:

God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ--Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He died on the cross, the complete and final sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. Further, He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He is now our High Priest and Advocate.

The Holy Spirit--The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and during this age, to convict men of sin, regenerate the believing sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living and service.
Ministry Beliefs (Last checked Dec. 14, 1999, and archived here). The current statement, last accessed June 28, 2007, still refers to 'manifestations,' but now with a lower case.

The belief that God exists in three "manifestations" is called Sabellianism or modalism:

Sabellianism or Modalism. Sabellius (A.D. 200), the originator of this viewpoint, spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he understood all three as no more than three manifestations of one God. This teaching came to be known as modalism because it views one God who variously manifests Himself in three modes of existence: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Trinity (Triunity) of God

John Morehead writes:

Orthodox Christians and Oneness adherents are agreed that the Scriptures teach that there is only one God. The classic text in this regard is Deut. 6:4. Numerous other biblical passages teach that there is only one God. However, the Bible nowhere teaches that the "oneness" of God is to be understood as only one Person. Here orthodox Christianity and Oneness Pentecostalism diverge. Christianity affirms one God in three co-existing persons as Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Oneness theology affirms one God in one person, Jesus Christ, in three modes or manifestations.
Oneness Pentecostalism: A Subtle Heresy

Interestingly, the "Ministry Beliefs" statement at the TD Jakes website differs from the "Doctrinal Statement for T.D. Jakes/Potter's House Ministries" at the same web site. This one provides us with another look at the doctrine of the Trinity:

THREE DIMENSIONS OF ONE GOD (1 John 5:7; Mathew 28:19; 1 Tim 3:16)

We believe in one God who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His manifestation, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in His authority.

We believe in the Father who is God Himself, Creator of the universe. {Gen 1:1; John 1:1}

We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (Col 2:9) He suffered, died, was buried, and rose from the dead for our total salvation (Luke 3:21-22; Philippians 2:5-11). We believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 3:36; John 3:31-32; John 14:6).

We believe in the Holy Spirit who is God indwelling, empowering and regenerating the believer. This Holy Spirit is called the Comforter. The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17,
14:26)
Doctrinal Statement for T.D. Jakes/Potter's House Ministries (Last accessed, Dec. 14, 1999)

At first glance, this may sound a little better. However, saying that God has "three dimensions" and adding the word "Triune" does not indicate adherence to orthodox doctrine regarding the Trinity. In fact, the statement appears to be worded to appeal to both Oneness believers and Trinitarians, even though it is impossible to hold both the Oneness and the Trinitarian position - or to compromise on the doctrine of the Trinity.

Responding to a posting of Jakes' Doctrinal Statement on the AR-talk mailing list, Dr. Gordon Lewis wrote, "The revised statement on God revives Sabellian modalism. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not merely three manifestations of one God in history, three different hats he wears."

Bottom line: the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct, co-existent, co-equal Persons within the one God. If that is what TD Jakes Ministries beliefs, it should make an unequivocal statement to that effect. However, repeated emailed requests for clarification on this issue have gone unanswered.

But in February, 2000, Christianity Today reported:

The quarterly journal of the southern California–based Christian Research Institute (http://www.equip.org/) quotes from public remarks by Jakes to argue that, whatever baptismal formulas he uses in different venues, his primary theological language for the Godhead remains Oneness Pentecostal.
(...)

One of the Journal's most detailed quotations comes from a Los Angeles radio show, ''Living By the Word.'' KKLA-FM broadcast host Jim Coleman's interview with Jakes on August 23 and 30, 1998.

Coleman asks Jakes how important it is for Christians to believe in the Trinity. Jakes responds:

I think it's very, very significant that we first of all study the Trinity apart from salvation, and first of all that we embrace Christ and come to him to know who he is. Having come to know who he is, then we begin to deal with the Trinity, which I believe is a very complex issue. The Trinity, the term 'Trinity,' is not a biblical term, to begin with.

It's a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I'm not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, ''Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside him there is no other.'' When God got ready to make a man that looked like him, he didn't make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul, and spirit. We have one God, but he is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.

(...)
''Given his and his ministry's insistence on modalist language in describing the Trinity, the assertions of his colleague [associate minister Lawrence Robinson] that he is a modalist, and his affiliation with a Oneness group, we have every reason to doubt that by 'Trinity' his ministry means three eternally distinct Persons,'' Miller told CHRISTIANITY TODAY.
Apologetics Journal Criticizes T.D. Jakes, Christianity Today, February 7, 2000, Vol. 44, No. 2, Page 58

Christianity Today also posted a response by T.D. Jakes showing that he is, indeed, a modalist:

While I mix with Christians from a broad range of theological perspectives, I speak only for my personal faith and convictions. I am not a theologian, and I avoid quoting even theologians who agree with me. To defend my beliefs, I go directly to the Bible.

My views on the Godhead are from 1 John 5:7-8, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (NKJV)

I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions — so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.
T.D. Jakes, "My Views on the Godhead", Christianity Today Online edition

See also, "T.D. Jakes Responds To The (Christian Research) Journal."

Bottom-line: In its initial article, the Christian Research Journal writes:

Even well-discipled and discerning Christians find it challenging to differentiate between the truth and error found in Jakes’s teachings — let alone the watching secular world. The New York Times published an article on 1 January 1999 regarding how America has always had a national evangelist. ''Ever since the colonial era, America has had a pre-eminent preacher who played an unofficial role as national evangelist, preaching a simple message of repentance and salvation and drawing vast crowds in the process. For the last 50 years that role has been filled by the Rev. Billy Graham. But at the turn of the century with Mr. Graham now 80, the question arises, Who if anyone can take his place.''63 It is sobering that of the five possible successors to Billy Graham listed, one of them is T. D. Jakes.

There is no denying that T. D. Jakes has many fine leadership qualities, and the social outreaches of his Potter’s House church appear quite commendable. But, while sound doctrine is not the only criterion for leadership among Christians (1 Tim. 3:1–13), it is certainly a necessary criterion (Tit. 1:9–11). Do we really want a non-Trinitarian to be the spiritual leader of our country? If the answer to this question is anything but an unequivocal no, the future looks dark indeed for the American church.
The Man, His Ministry, And His Movement: Concerns About The Teachings Of T.D. Jakes by by Jerry L. Buckner, writing in the Christian Research Journal
__________________
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. ~Tolkien

Last edited by Amanah; 09-27-2011 at 07:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:29 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

There is only one man among todays Oneness Pentecostal groups that I consider a leader in the end time move of the Spirit.

Dave Huston in Carlisle Pa. To my knowledge he teaches the foundations more accurately than any others. Of course there may be (and hopefully there are) others but I just have not found them yet.

This site introduces his ministry. Dont expect a lot of stuff about him. He is a humble man.

http://gloriouschurch.ning.com/

This one is probably better:

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 09-27-2011 at 08:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:41 PM
Hoovie's Avatar
Hoovie Hoovie is offline
Supercalifragilisticexpiali...


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
There is only one man among todays Oneness Pentecostal groups that I consider a leader in the end time move of the Spirit.

Dave Huston in Carlisle Pa. To my knowledge he teaches the foundations more accurately than any others. Of course they may be (and hopefully there are) others but I just have not found them yet.

This site introduces his ministry. Dont expect a lot of stuff about him. He is a humble man.

http://gloriouschurch.ning.com/
I like Dave H. and had the honor of meeting him again last year (I think I met him many years ago)
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:43 PM
Digging4Truth's Avatar
Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
Still Figuring It Out.


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,858
Re: Who is Leading This Generation?

It would be nice to have a generation full of many great leaders with no clear cut "leader of the pack".
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cup of Blessings from Generation to Generation... Falla39 Fellowship Hall 13 06-10-2012 12:07 AM
Has evolutionism become a leading religion? coadie Fellowship Hall 533 10-26-2010 06:22 PM
Cup of Blessings from Generation to Generation Falla39 Fellowship Hall 2 09-01-2010 05:24 PM
The Hinsons=He Is Leading The Way. Scott Hutchinson Fellowship Hall 21 06-09-2008 02:42 PM
Leading Trinitarian Performs Miracle Old Paths Fellowship Hall 17 04-01-2007 12:02 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by jfrog
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.