The Law of Moses

[Godsdrummer]

Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


In this passaged two things are given, 1. that the comandment of God was from the beginning that there be no divorce. 2. that Moses gave comandments that were not the voice of God.

So I ask the question what were the comandments of God and what were the comandments of Moses. (Man)?

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

This oratory of comandments of God continues through the 23rd chapter, then God gives instructions for the tabernacle in the wildreness. Which takes us up through chapter 30.

Many of the other oracles and commandments found through out the rest of the books of leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are more seemingly the words of Moses than words of God. Where else can we get the doctrines of Moses over laying the commands of God?

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. ....

Here is the passage in question refered to by Jesus, Moses sat as judge over the people mediating disputes that came up between them could not these judgments Moses made be transfered into written form to establish laws pertaining to the land.

The point here is or the question again is as Paul speaks in 2 Timothy 3:16,
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
What are the scriptures (the commands of God) and what are mans words.

Again Paul instructs us, 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
what does he truly mean to rightly divide the word?

Do we confuse the issue by not understanding what are the commands of God, and laying weights on one another that God did not intend for his children to bear?

Even the Apostles understood that we did not need to follow the Law of Moses, laws the were even heavy for them to bear.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Two things to note here in these passages, the law is refered to as the law of Moses. And that God had purified by faith and given them the Holy Ghost.

[jagwinn]

Valid study, brother.
I have a tendancy to have faith in God that as he chose Moses with full confidence in him, and allowed the scripture to be 'inspired of God', so I will continue to have faith that ALL scripture is from God regardless of the writer.

I do not feel within me the need to try to seperate and sift bro Moses writings. I know we are instructed to rightly divide the word of God, but I still trust that Moses writings are basiclly the idea of God.

I think perhaps our aim is to apply the scripture to our life and try to emmulate God(Jesus).

I appreciate your thoughts,
Bro John

.

[Timmy]

Wasn't the law of Moses given by God, through him? Were they God's idea, or did Moses just make temp up?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Wasn't the law of Moses given by God, through him? Were they God's idea, or did Moses just make temp up?

LAW OF MOSES is used in reference to the Law gave to him, as also is Law of God.

Jos 8:31 KJV As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.


Jos 24:26 KJV And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

The LAW referred to in the New Testament is the one and the same Law of Moses or Law of God. And the Law simply came to show sin. The law is the power of sin. Law says THOU SHALT NOT, and sin says I WILL. That is why law came -- to expose sin.

1Co 15:56 KJV The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Wasn't the law of Moses given by God, through him? Were they God's idea, or did Moses just make temp up?

Again I refer to the words of Jesus where he says Moses gave a commandment for divorcement because of the hardness of your hearts, implying that some parts of the Law of Moses was from his own judgments above the primary commands God gave him on the mnt. We know that by Christ day the religious leaders had taken the primary Laws and redefined them as if they were not good enough when given by God. For instance the laws pertaining to the sabbath. God said six days shall you work on the seventh you shall rest. The religious leaders redefined this by stipulation how far you could walk before it became work and a sin, etc. Jesus even upbraided them when he told them they had lost the whole meaning of the law of the Sabbath, when he told them the sabbath was for man...

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

[OldOne]

Mt 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

The words that Jesus spoke in the above scripture would lead me to beleive that we are still living under the Law of Moses Do you think we are still governed by that Law?
Has all the Mosiac Law been fulfilled? I know that some of the prophecies have not been filled.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by OldOne

Mt 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

The words that Jesus spoke in the above scripture would lead me to beleive that we are still living under the Law of Moses Do you think we are still governed by that Law?
Has all the Mosiac Law been fulfilled? I know that some of the prophecies have not been filled.

Jesus said "I come not to do away with the law but to fulfill it" What parts have not been fulfilled. What prophecy has not been fulfilled. Jesus said the "kingdom of God was not meet or drink." If you are looking for a literal kingdom keep looking, I see the literal Kingdom here right now.

If Jesus paid the full price for sin so we could be saved by faith in him. Why would one ever think that God would go back to a plan of works. If Isreal is to turn to God they must turn to him the same way everyone else does. So explain if you would how you see Isreal turning to God. Going back to thier home land is not turning to God, building a new temple and offering sacrifices is not turning back to God. He already laid his life down as the supreme sacrifice.

As for the Law of God when he gave Moses the ten comandments that was all the law needed. What are the rest of the books of the law? Kind of reminds me of our own declaration of independenc, It was plain enough in its original form but man has ammended it added to it, and now are trying to say it does not mean what the language ment when it was written.

[OldOne]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Jesus said "I come not to do away with the law but to fulfill it" What parts have not been fulfilled. What prophecy has not been fulfilled. Jesus said the "kingdom of God was not meet or drink." If you are looking for a literal kingdom keep looking, I see the literal Kingdom here right now.

If Jesus paid the full price for sin so we could be saved by faith in him. Why would one ever think that God would go back to a plan of works. If Isreal is to turn to God they must turn to him the same way everyone else does. So explain if you would how you see Isreal turning to God. Going back to thier home land is not turning to God, building a new temple and offering sacrifices is not turning back to God. He already laid his life down as the supreme sacrifice.

As for the Law of God when he gave Moses the ten comandments that was all the law needed. What are the rest of the books of the law? Kind of reminds me of our own declaration of independenc, It was plain enough in its original form but man has ammended it added to it, and now are trying to say it does not mean what the language ment when it was written.

WOW! I think I have been accused of some things that I did not imply.
First I am sure that us of the Apostolic faith know that Jesus was the lamb
slain from the foundation of the world. He fulfilled that prophecy when he shed his blood on the cross.

Books of the Law are Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. There are debates as to whether God gave Moses all the laws written in these books.
They are part of our bible (God's word) believe it or not, your choice. If it was ammended it was by God's chosen leader, and not by ungodly people like some of our congress is today.

I have not suggested that Israel, but God will return to Israel in the 70th week of Daniel's vision. A prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Israel returning to their homeland, a Prophecy fulfilled. Rebuilding the temple, a prophecy yet to be filled. The daily sacrifice's return, a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Dan 9:27
Ezekiel 38th chapter not fulfilled. Zachariah 14:4 not fulfilled ETC.

About the fulfilling of the Law:

Ro 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
If anyone has not love, the law is not fulfilled

Lu 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

1Ti 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Paul, in writting to a Timothy verified that the law is still in effect for those that do the things listed in the above scriptures

I hope I have answer all the point you presented. God Bless

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by OldOne

WOW! I think I have been accused of some things that I did not imply.
First I am sure that us of the Apostolic faith know that Jesus was the lamb
slain from the foundation of the world. He fulfilled that prophecy when he shed his blood on the cross.

Books of the Law are Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. There are debates as to whether God gave Moses all the laws written in these books.
They are part of our bible (God's word) believe it or not, your choice. If it was ammended it was by God's chosen leader, and not by ungodly people like some of our congress is today.

What differance does it make if it was ammended by God's chosen leader or someone else. Moses was still just a man? That is the problem I see with church leadership today. We think that being chosen by God give us certain rights and authority never passed down from God to us. God was king not Moses. Moses was only the spokesperson of God. As the children of Isreal did not want to hear from God directily. Ex. 20.

I have not suggested that Israel, but God will return to Israel in the 70th week of Daniel's vision. A prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Israel returning to their homeland, a Prophecy fulfilled. Rebuilding the temple, a prophecy yet to be filled. The daily sacrifice's return, a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Dan 9:27

You and many others sure do stretch the passaged in Daniel to say much that it does not say. I would remmind you and any others God did not tell Daniel that 69 weeks plus 1 were determined upon his people. God said 70 weeks. The daily sacrifice's return? how do you get that out of the passage When Jesus was on earth the daily sacrifice was in effect his death caused it to cease. What men/women tend to miss in the word of God is that it is all about the comming of God to redeme man for the sin brought on by Adam. This passage in Daniel is about the comming of Messiah nothing else. It is about the confirming of the covenant God made with man when he promise to come and restore relationship with him.

Bottom line Daniel 9 has been fulfilled in its entirety at and during the life of Christ and the generation following with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 38th chapter not fulfilled. Zachariah 14:4 not fulfilled ETC.

I can give you some good refrences to how these have been fulfilled if you are interested. But fulfilled they have been regardless if we want to beleive it or not. When God gave his life on the cross he paid the ultimet price for salvation he will never revisit or accept the old sacrificial system. He has made the way to relationship back to him avalable to all. If the Jew want to be saved they must come the same way everyone else does. As for returning to their home land again not a fulfilment of prophecy. But rather a mistranslation of that which has aready come to pass.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

About the fulfilling of the Law:

Ro 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
If anyone has not love, the law is not fulfilled

Lu 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

1Ti 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Paul, in writting to a Timothy verified that the law is still in effect for those that do the things listed in the above scriptures

I hope I have answer all the point you presented. God Bless

The question is not whether the law is still in effect, but what part of the law. When scripture says not one jot or title shall pass away what part of the books called the law is he refering to. Jesus quoted from the ten commandment. Did he quote from any other part of the books we call the law?

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, his life on the cross did away with the sacrificial system forever including the temple cerimonies. Which were all a type of the glorious temple of God seen by Ezekial and John in their visions.

I know I come accros as a know it all and that is not the intent hope you will forgive me of that. I do enjoy the discustion not so much to cause you or others to change what they understand scripture to say, but rather to get one back into the word with questions.

I have found that it does not hurt to actualy study others ideas with a open mind rather than aways trying to refute them it has been my experiance that we can and are wrong many times and the only way to correct this is to study.

There is one fact that I have also found when we are open to God and alow him to lead us truth will prevail.

God bless

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by jagwinn

Valid study, brother.
I have a tendancy to have faith in God that as he chose Moses with full confidence in him, and allowed the scripture to be 'inspired of God', so I will continue to have faith that ALL scripture is from God regardless of the writer.

I do not feel within me the need to try to seperate and sift bro Moses writings. I know we are instructed to rightly divide the word of God, but I still trust that Moses writings are basiclly the idea of God.

I think perhaps our aim is to apply the scripture to our life and try to emmulate God(Jesus).

I appreciate your thoughts,
Bro John

.

Thanks Bro

But again the argument is not so much whether Moses words were inspired by God. But what commandments if any have been fulfilled and what parts are still in effect.