Purgatory

[easter]

I wonder why the Catholic religion believes in purgatory?Are the Catholics the only ones who believe in such a place?Is there scripture in the word that validates purgatory, a place where people who are not quiet bad enough for hell but not good enough for Heaven?
I would appreciate any comments on this subject of Purgatory and if this place is real.

[Pressing-On]

Basically, it's just a practice of praying for the dead. It's interesting that it was probably taken from Judaism which was an ancient practice and, I believe, it was also an ancient Buddhist custom.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by easter

I wonder why the Catholic religion believes in purgatory?Are the Catholics the only ones who believe in such a place?Is there scripture in the word that validates purgatory, a place where people who are not quiet bad enough for hell but not good enough for Heaven?
I would appreciate any comments on this subject of Purgatory and if this place is real.

Purgatory was the result of the enfluence from the Greek interpretation of Scripture. The Latin Catholics believed in eternal torments yet the Greek language appears to indicate or at least allow for a type of purgatory or purification. Study the theological term "kolasis" (Gk.) and how it was used by Christ.

[mfblume]

Purgatory is in the apocrypha.

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

[easter]

Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by easter

Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?

Personally (and I only speak for myself), purgatory isn't all that biblically based. However, the notion of "kolasis" (Gk.; Matthew 25:46), as can be defined by a "pruning" or "refinement" of the wicked (Universal Reconciliationism) is a far more biblically sustainable position.

Ultimately we must leave God's dealings with the unsaved entirely in His hands, firmly believing that He is both just and merciful.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?

The Apocrypha was rejected from the KJV because of things like purgatory. I do not believe it is sound doctrine whatsoever.

[Deo Gratias]

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Not forgiven in this age or the age to come.

What could be forgiven in heaven? or hell? Yet Jesus is implying that some sort of post-death forgiveness can occur for some sins, because He takes care to point out that it won't happen for the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Tim 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me 18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Onesiphorus is almost certainly dead, else why would Paul ask the Lord to grant mercy to his family apart from him? Yet Paul also asks the Lord to grant Onesiphorus mercy. If there is no Purgatory, why does Paul ask this? Those in hell cannot be helped by prayers and those in heaven have no need of prayers.

1 Pet 3:18-19 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Mt 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

In other words there is a temporal debt attached to all sin and if we haven't fully expiated that debt in this life we must do so in purgatory.

Lk 16:19-31 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

God is love. Hell is being completely cut off from God. Hell is being completely cut off from love. In Hell, one can feel no love for anyone, not even one's self - it is total exclusion from love, from God. The rich man is clearly not in heaven, but he just as clearly feels compassion for his brothers and is concerned about their well-being, so he is clearly not in hell. Where is he? Incidentally, this is the only parable in which Christ gives one of the persons in the story a name - Lazarus. For this reason, many Christian commentators think this is not a parable, but a description of an historical event known to Christ.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. {This is very sobering. Two thirds of men will be eternally lost. It also agrees perfectly with the parable of the sower. In the parable of the sower only one third of the seed fell in rich soil and producted fruit.}

Wisdom 3:5-6 - Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

Sirah 2:5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Since nothing unclean can enter heaven that means that we must be completely cleansed from all faults and attachments to venial sin.

The doctrine of purgatory is not something that the Church made up, it is firmly rooted in sacred scripture. I've only posted a few scripture references for purgatory but there are many more. It is an article of faith that must be believed by all Catholics. Before the Protestant reformation all Christians believed in purgatory. Also Eastern Orthodox
Christians (while they don't believe in purgatory) believe that after death a soul in a state of grace must go through a purification process before being admitted into heaven. Since very few of us depart from this life perfect, most of us will end up having to go through purgatory.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Deo Gratias

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Not forgiven in this age or the age to come.

What could be forgiven in heaven? or hell? Yet Jesus is implying that some sort of post-death forgiveness can occur for some sins, because He takes care to point out that it won't happen for the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.

Purgatory is non-existent. There is not one plain statement Jesus ever made to the effect that a purgatory will occur for people, and to take passages like you are taking makes purgatory something IMPLIED AT BEST, but NEVER stated in plain terms in the bible. Would such an important doctrine be derived from VAGUENESS of IMPLICATIONS and not be plainly stated? Of course not.

Not being forgiven in the age to come is not speaking of a PLACE to come, but AN AGE. It implies everyone will experience THIS AGE. How can that imply purgatory, since not everyone will go through purgatory in the minds of the Catholic teaching? The blood of Jesus alone cleanses from all sin, and we cannot add to that some idea of purgatory to do the work through suffering. Jesus suffered for us in regards to sin. We need not suffer for sin in one minuscule manner. We suffer for other reasons, but never for sin. Jesus spoke those words before the cross. THE AGE TO COME was the age of the CHURCH. neither before the church age started nor during the church age would that sin be forgiven. It is not speaking about the afterlife. More later.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Deo Gratias

1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The fire is not a purgatory fire, but the judgment of God at the great white throne. revelation 20. This does not say the person suffers a literal fiery torment until something is purged out of him, but the WORKS are burnt up. That is a far cry from the person suffering purgatory.

2 Tim 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me 18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Onesiphorus is almost certainly dead, else why would Paul ask the Lord to grant mercy to his family apart from him? Yet Paul also asks the Lord to grant Onesiphorus mercy. If there is no Purgatory, why does Paul ask this? Those in hell cannot be helped by prayers and those in heaven have no need of prayers.

We are not meant to look in scripture for a belief we already have. See my motto below. We are meant to allow the scriptures to teach us what to believe. Purgatory is not found in scriptures. One has to LOOK FOR IT as you did in this passage, for no one would get purgatory from this passage without having heard of it before and looking for it in this passage. But unless one rejects the doctrine of Tradition and Magisterium of the RC Church, one will not have that paradigm, anyway. RC doctrine has a whole load of cans of worms to deal with since the RC church thinks so differently about the basis for truth. They take CHrist's words about the Spirit of truth coming to guide us into all truth as the centuries after the bible was completed where RC priests claim new doctrines the bible never spoke about, like Trinity understanding. In reality, Jesus meant the days after the Acts 2 Spirit baptism when the apostles wrote the epistles by the revelation of the Spirit.

At any rate, he Lord granting Onesiphorus mercy on THAT DAY simply refers to what has been done in his lifetime being judged at the final judgment. Why would this involve a purgatory? Again, one has to have a predetermined view of purgatory in order to get the slightest hint of one from this passage. And that is extremely backward exegesis. Paul simply stated that he hoped Onesiphorus' actions would get a great reward on judgment. Moses prayed for God to be easier on the Israelites in His judgment, and God was! This did not demand a purgatory.

1 Pet 3:18-19 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

This is commonly sensationalized to think of Jesus preaching to dead people. It is actually speaking of the SPIRIT OF CHRIST UPON NOAH when Noah preached. It is not Jesus, Himself, but His anointing power on Noah to appeal to the sinners while alive in Nopah's day.

Mt 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

In other words there is a temporal debt attached to all sin and if we haven't fully expiated that debt in this life we must do so in purgatory.

WHAT??? lol. You get purgatory and expiation for sin in the afterlife from this verse? Again, this is an extreme stretch to say the least. It is simply saying one will never be released from hell's judgment. Just as in Matt 18, the one who refused to forgive his brother for pittance in comparison to the master's forgiveness of a huge debt, that one will never be able to pay the debt and be never released therefore, from punishment. It is not saying payment is possible as in a purgatory manner of payment that makes us suffer for sins when only Jesus can suffer for our sins, or else we be lost eternally..

Lk 16:19-31 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

God is love. Hell is being completely cut off from God. Hell is being completely cut off from love. In Hell, one can feel no love for anyone, not even one's self - it is total exclusion from love, from God. The rich man is clearly not in heaven, but he just as clearly feels compassion for his brothers and is concerned about their well-being, so he is clearly not in hell. Where is he? Incidentally, this is the only parable in which Christ gives one of the persons in the story a name - Lazarus. For this reason, many Christian commentators think this is not a parable, but a description of an historical event known to Christ.

This is extreme grand assumption. Where does the bible say one cannot feel remorse in hell? Your argument here is based totally upon the assumption, and not scripture, that one cannot feel remorse in hell.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. {This is very sobering. Two thirds of men will be eternally lost. It also agrees perfectly with the parable of the sower. In the parable of the sower only one third of the seed fell in rich soil and producted fruit.}

Again, grand assumption. who said this is after death when people are refined? Not the text.

Wisdom 3:5-6 - Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

This is from the Apocrypha and is not inspired words of God, and never did Jesus nor any NT writer ever wrote from the apocrypha. We cannot gain any spiritual truth from the apocrypha.

As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

Sirah 2:5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

...More apocryphal error.

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Since nothing unclean can enter heaven that means that we must be completely cleansed from all faults and attachments to venial sin.

...That is, before we die.

The doctrine of purgatory is not something that the Church made up, it is firmly rooted in sacred scripture.

It is absolutely NOT rooted in sacred scripture.

One would never come from the scriptures with any understanding of purgatory without having been taught it from the RC church dogmas.