The oft spoken about and much anticipated poll results by Rodney Shaw have been published.
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First, He is to be congratulated for his valiant effort to measure the pulse of a divided fellowship. Albeit, he admittedly remarks in his analysis of the results that this unscientific anonymous web based poll of no more than 5 % of the constituency is 100% unscientific..... Of course, serious questions endure as to the reliability or validity of this sample but it does make for good forum fodder.
Unsurprisingly, close to 95%..agreed on the articles on Repentance, Water baptism, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
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These articles, borrowed almost verbatim from the PCI manual, are the same articles in which men who differed on what constituted the New Birth, like Goss, Norris, Gray, Scism, Gurley,.. Yadon, Urshan - ..agreed to at merger, in 1945.
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What is very troubling is Shaw's fallacious conclusion is that this present day consensus equates to overwhelming "agreement" on the New Birth"... First, none of the articles of faith of the UPCl mention the new birth, intentionally, because of varying views on the New Birth. Second, Shaw is able to make such a conclusion that the present-day ministers are in agreement on the New Birth based on the data from these specific article questions and survey questions is of serious consequence as to the reasoning behind this conclusion if there is no mention of the New Birth... Lastly, either Shaw is ignorant to the conflicting language of these articles on Repentance, Water Baptism, and Holy Ghost Baptism and the history of his organization regarding the New Birth or he is in possible violation of his affirmation statement by contending for a view that is not supported in the Fundamental Doctrine... Perhaps aligning his conclusion to the Fundamental Doctrine and stating there is agreement to the “full standard of biblical salvation” would be more accurate?..
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What is of more interest, I believe are the results on Holiness... Only 60% of those surveyed believe that Holiness statement should remain worded as is... This means some either would like to see more or less in this Holiness article... The numbers are close to half when one factors the age demographic of younger ministers from about 20-40 that are dissatisfied with the Holiness article..
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For more details visit: http://rodneyshaw.wordpress.com/2009...esults-are-in/
I found it interesting that the 18-25 age group responded more conservatively than the 26-30, 31-35 and 35-40 groups.
Well......until I saw that most in that age group are being mentored by at least one older licensed minister. New younger preachers tend to be "yes" men. They apparently start thinking for themselves in their 30's.
__________________ Words: For when an emoticon just isn't enough.
The oft spoken about and much anticipated poll results by Rodney Shaw have been published.
..
First, He is to be congratulated for his valiant effort to measure the pulse of a divided fellowship. Albeit, he admittedly remarks in his analysis of the results that this unscientific anonymous web based poll of no more than 5 % of the constituency is 100% unscientific..... Of course, serious questions endure as to the reliability or validity of this sample but it does make for good forum fodder.
Unsurprisingly, close to 95%..agreed on the articles on Repentance, Water baptism, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
..
These articles, borrowed almost verbatim from the PCI manual, are the same articles in which men who differed on what constituted the New Birth, like Goss, Norris, Gray, Scism, Gurley,.. Yadon, Urshan - ..agreed to at merger, in 1945.
..
What is very troubling is Shaw's fallacious conclusion is that this present day consensus equates to overwhelming "agreement" on the New Birth"... First, none of the articles of faith of the UPCl mention the new birth, intentionally, because of varying views on the New Birth. Second, Shaw is able to make such a conclusion that the present-day ministers are in agreement on the New Birth based on the data from these specific article questions and survey questions is of serious consequence as to the reasoning behind this conclusion if there is no mention of the New Birth... Lastly, either Shaw is ignorant to the conflicting language of these articles on Repentance, Water Baptism, and Holy Ghost Baptism and the history of his organization regarding the New Birth or he is in possible violation of his affirmation statement by contending for a view that is not supported in the Fundamental Doctrine... Perhaps aligning his conclusion to the Fundamental Doctrine and stating there is agreement to the “full standard of biblical salvation” would be more accurate?..
..
What is of more interest, I believe are the results on Holiness... Only 60% of those surveyed believe that Holiness statement should remain worded as is... This means some either would like to see more or less in this Holiness article... The numbers are close to half when one factors the age demographic of younger ministers from about 20-40 that are dissatisfied with the Holiness article..
..
For more details visit: http://rodneyshaw.wordpress.com/2009...esults-are-in/
The real question he should ask, is How does one become justified? (minimum for salvation)
While I believe in the full New Birth that constitutes Repentance, Faith, Baptism of Water and Spirit, I think scripture is clear that one is justified at repentance/faith.
Those men in my peer group believe that to be true as well.
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My personal mission is to BRING people into a right relationship with God, GROW them up to maturity and SEND them back into the world to minister.
I found it interesting that the 18-25 age group responded more conservatively than the 26-30, 31-35 and 35-40 groups.
Well......until I saw that most in that age group are being mentored by at least one older licensed minister. New younger preachers tend to be "yes" men. They apparently start thinking for themselves in their 30's.
In my opinion, the 18-25 folks are either just out of seminary, or still under their Pastor. Their beliefs are right out of the UPCi manual. They haven't had the chance to study these issues from a biblical standpoint, rather than being indoctrinated by UPCi bylaws.
Again, my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.
I thought the survey was well-done, despite not getting enough participation. I think the fact that the title of this thread says "Shaw's 'little' poll" is demeaning from the start. While the poster raises great questions on the elements of New Birth, Shaw is simply saying, "out of this sample, there's not much disagreement on the subject of the New Birth."
Who here participated in the poll? I wonder what it would have looked like if non-UPCI ministers (other Apo orgs) were included.
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