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Old 03-27-2009, 07:00 AM
coadie coadie is offline
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Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

. GOAL OF THIS POST
To explain the critical information, ideas, and logic that forms the foundation of pro-life beliefs.






The primary focus of this Thread will center on

1.) The intellectual, scientific, and logic arguments

2.) The Declaration of Independence or the legal argument all are created equal


That rationale is the following:

1) Intentionally killing an innocent human being is morally wrong.

2) Elective abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human being.

3) Hence, elective abortion is a serious moral wrong.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."






There are four basic differences between the unborn and the newly born that pro-choice advocates site as differences that are so clear and so undeniable that they are morally relevant to the point of allowing the mother with the help of her physician to take the life of her unborn child.

1.) Size.

The unborn is so small, so tiny that it is obviously not worthy of personhood or the rights afforded to human beings who are persons.

If size is the morally relevant factor, what size of human being confers the right of personhood and is the greater the size, the greater the rights. Obviously the unborn is smaller than the newborn. But the newborn is considerably smaller than the toddler. The toddler is smaller than an 8 year old.

The 8 year old considerably smaller than a teenager and so on.

Following this line of reason, then does that mean that the newborn or the infant has less right to protection under the law than the teenager or the adult? Of course not. Does Shaquil O'Neal, who is a much bigger person than Gloria Steinhem, have more rights under the law than Gloria simply because he is bigger. How exactly is size the morally relevant factor and what is the exact size that conveys personhood onto a human being. The third trimester abortion at 6 pounds is NOT less human than the premature birth child at 2 pounds. Am I more human at 6'5" and 240 lbs than a mom at 145 lbs? If yes, you buy into Darwins survival of the fittest and size and strength rule in superiority.

2.) Level of development.

It is true that the unborn is less developed than the newborn. Is this morally relevant? A newborn is considerably less well developed than a toddler. A toddler is less well developed than the adolescent and the adolescent is still less developed than the adult. Nevertheless, we speak of them all equally as persons. Puberty signifies a great phase of increase in development. Now realize the anatomical parts were there before birth. All have the same rights under the law. Development and the process of development is an important aspect of being a person but how can it define personhood.

• If robots could do all that persons do behavorially and some day they might, would they then be a person simply because they have a highly developed level of dexterity, memory or logic. These absurd conclusions follow from defining personhood based on what a being can do rather than what she is.

• Personhood stems from being. A person is one with a natural inherent capacity to give rise to personal acts even if he lacks the current ability to perform those acts. Persons who are unconscious do not have the present capacity to perform personal acts but we are not allowed to kill them nor should we be allowed to kill the unborn who is in a very similar state and condition.

3.) Environment

It is true that the unborn is located in a different place than the newborn but how does a change in location suddenly change a non-human entity into a human one. A fetus connected to the incubator of her mother's womb is no less a child than the one being sustained on an incubator in neonatal intensive care unit. A premmie on tubes is not less human than one attached to the cord.

It should be quite obvious that you do not start being a human being or stop being one simply because you have a different address.

4.) Degree of dependency.

If viability is what makes one human, then all those dependent on kidney machines, heart pace-makers, or insulin could be declared non-persons. There is no ethical difference between an unborn child who is plugged into and dependent upon its mother than a kidney failure patient who is plugged into a dialysis machine. Or a patient with a head injury who is on a ventilator. Or Siamese twins who are alive and thriving. Are they eligible to forfeit their life simply because they depend upon each other's circulatory systems.

...... The unborn child differs from the newborn child in only four ways. Size, level of development, environment or location and degree of dependency. None of these differences stand the scrutiny of reason and logic for differentiating a human being who is a person from one who is not.

I posted this on another "Christian" discussion board and the attacks of the atheists fit into the 4 categories. These ideas help us break down the arguments to facts that fit in different categories.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:51 AM
coadie coadie is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

How are we as Americans standing against the abortion of innocent children and laws that protect the sanctity of life?
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:11 AM
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shawndell shawndell is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

I agree completely with what you have said.I also know of women and im sure thier are men who would give any thing to adopt a child,so much so that we have poeple on a waiting list thats so long that by the time a child becomes available they wil be to old to adopt.I also know women who have had abortions because they say it will be to hard to give the baby up wants the child would be born,and I feel that is selfish.These women would rather murder thier child than give these little ones life and happiness to some family that has been praying for God to bless thier home with children.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:05 PM
coadie coadie is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndell View Post
I agree completely with what you have said.I also know of women and im sure thier are men who would give any thing to adopt a child,so much so that we have poeple on a waiting list thats so long that by the time a child becomes available they wil be to old to adopt.I also know women who have had abortions because they say it will be to hard to give the baby up wants the child would be born,and I feel that is selfish.These women would rather murder thier child than give these little ones life and happiness to some family that has been praying for God to bless thier home with children.
If we look at ladies in church, just remember at some point in time, 1 out of 3 had an abortion. They chose murder because it was presented as a better solution. It just creates more problems.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:30 PM
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shawndell shawndell is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

I know that there is forgiveness for abortion.Ive heard testamonies of the power of forgiveness graced by God in the life of some of these women. Ive also heard the stories of some who were aborted and lived to tell about it and those people are truely the voice of the unborn.Some of the ones who lived has had some very severe handycaps but are still glad to be alive! Check the web servivers of abortion.Thats where I heard some of the testamonies its awsome.
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:50 PM
coadie coadie is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndell View Post
I know that there is forgiveness for abortion.Ive heard testamonies of the power of forgiveness graced by God in the life of some of these women. Ive also heard the stories of some who were aborted and lived to tell about it and those people are truely the voice of the unborn.Some of the ones who lived has had some very severe handycaps but are still glad to be alive! Check the web servivers of abortion.Thats where I heard some of the testamonies its awsome.
http://www.giannajessen.com/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1657236/posts

She sang at the Colorado legislature. She has Cerebral Palsy.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:00 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

Coadie this is a very complicated issue. I agree that an unnecessary abortion is a moral wrong and a tragedy. However, if a woman faces a serious health condition or even risks a serious health condition an abortion may be necessary to save her life. And sadly, the government isn't capable of adequately policing these situations. Therefore we face the difficult reality that this most divisive issue is best left in the hands of individual women. I know that if my wife faced a serious health condition I wouldn't want politics or politicians deciding if she had the right to abort or not. I think that an hour like that is already a tragedy enough...allow that choice to rest with the parents.

I was in the Army. We often have to make life and death decisions and we often pray that what we did wasn't the greater evil. We let people buy guns to protec themselves, for sport, or whatever...even though those guns may be used to unnecessarily kill others. I guess I've come to grips with the notion of individuals having the right to make choices in regards to life and death.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:03 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

I know of an expectant mother who had a cancer and faced the choice between abortion or treatment...because the treatment would most likely kill or at best severely harm the unborn child...but neglecting treatment would certainly be her death sentence.

That choice should be left in her hands.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:22 PM
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shawndell shawndell is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

That....was so awsome!!!!!I can feel God all over the place!!WOW!!When God wants something done it gets done!!!I can pray for God to stop this murder of children but surely there is something else that I can do.The national Anthem!!Boy God is good!!Thank you Jesus!!!
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Old 03-27-2009, 04:07 PM
coadie coadie is offline
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Re: Gentle anti-abortion apologetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Coadie this is a very complicated issue. I agree that an unnecessary abortion is a moral wrong and a tragedy. However, if a woman faces a serious health condition or even risks a serious health condition an abortion may be necessary to save her life. And sadly, the government isn't capable of adequately policing these situations. Therefore we face the difficult reality that this most divisive issue is best left in the hands of individual women. I know that if my wife faced a serious health condition I wouldn't want politics or politicians deciding if she had the right to abort or not. I think that an hour like that is already a tragedy enough...allow that choice to rest with the parents.

I was in the Army. We often have to make life and death decisions and we often pray that what we did wasn't the greater evil. We let people buy guns to protec themselves, for sport, or whatever...even though those guns may be used to unnecessarily kill others. I guess I've come to grips with the notion of individuals having the right to make choices in regards to life and death.
For people that are not "pro abortion" they sure go for awards and money from the abortion industry.



Quote:
Of course, the question remains whether this award is even an honor. If "no one is pro-abortion," as Barack Obama insists, then why agree to be celebrated by the number one supplier of abortion in America?

In the evening, Clinton attends a gala in Houston to receive the Margaret Sanger Award from the Planned Parenthood Federation of America for her advocacy of "women's health and rights throughout her public service career."
Actually it is a simple decision. Very simple. I have never seen anyone kill their baby that opposes killing a baby. I have seen docs recommend abortion and the parents say no and the baby is born normal. I have seen children born with problems and the parents loved them and God gave them love for their child.

The best left in the hands of the women? If the baby is 1 year old and beat to a pulp?


The "very complicated" comes from the author of confusion. You have convinced yourself of a lot of false information.

God will provide wisdom and healing. God is on the throne and every time people try to enter God's territory and make decisions, they can get into trouble.


Is it a baby?
Is stopping a beating heart killing?

And do you know why the argument was crafted by Dr. nathasan and NARAL to change the slogan to pro choice from Pro Abortion? All of what you know and believe comes from years of propoganda. People that leave the abortion industry admit it is propoganda and loaded with statistics that are pulled out of the air.
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