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  #1  
Old 03-14-2009, 06:43 PM
Praxeas's Avatar
Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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The Christ of Apostolic Full Preterism?

This debate, when initiated, will be between Burk and Sabellius.

The following rule sets will be used. I am opting for the first one. If you two agree then we can move on. If not then we need to modify which rule set and agree.

  1. FIRST - Limited to 200 , 300 , 400 , 500 or more words per post.
    1. Topic must be posted and agreed upon along with debate room reserved.
    2. Opening
      1. Debater 1 makes opening statement
      2. Debater 2 responds
      3. Response from Debater 1
      4. Response from Debater 2
      5. Response from Debater 1
      6. Response from Debater 2
    3. Cross Examination - Part 1
      1. Debater 2 asks 1st question
      2. Debater 1 responds
      3. Debater 2 asks 2nd question
      4. Debater 1 responds
    4. Cross Examination - Part 2
      1. Debater 1 asks 1st question
      2. Debater 2 responds
      3. Debater 1 asks 2nd question
      4. Debater 2 responds
    5. Concluding remarks from both sides.
      1. Debater 2 makes closing statement
      2. Debater 1 makes closing statement
  2. SECOND - Limited to 200 , 300 , 400 , 500 or more words per post.
    1. Topic must be posted and agreed upon along with debate room reserved.
    2. Opening
      1. Debater 1 makes opening statement.
      2. Debater 2 responds
      3. Debater 2 makes "second" opening statement
      4. Debater 1 responds
    3. Cross Examination
      1. Debater 2 asks 1 question
      2. Debater 1 responds
      3. Debater 1 asks 1 question
      4. Debater 2 responds
    4. Concluding remarks from both sides
      1. Debater 2 makes closing statement
      2. Debater 1 makes closing statement
I think we should do the max here of 500 words. If, during the course of the debate it seems that is not adequate, we can raise that level slightly. The purpose here is to simulate a formal "timed" debate and keep each person "honest", meaning if you resort to logical fallacies, irrelevant arguments, etc etc....you are just using up your word count.

It also brings the debate to a final conclusion rather than rambling on back and forth often going off topic. Both sides will be required to make their case and support it as best they can.

Posts made out of order, ie a second post in addition to your first post before a reply, will be deleted.

Further I recommend that the word count not include quoting the other person.

We might want to agree whether or not each side must quote the other person.

While the debate subject is preterism or some other eschatological position the over all debate can divided into several subdebates. For example Sabellius can make his affirmative statement here. Burk can agree with the topic and be in the position of denial. After that debate Burk can make an affirmative statement as well, pertaining to the same subject but a different area, the the debate can start again.

That will be up to you, but before beginning both sides have to agree on the topic. Since Sabellius offered the challenge he will offer the topic and make the affirmation statement.

Then the debate will open with Sabellius making the opening statement
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #2  
Old 03-15-2009, 06:03 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

Brother Burke has agreed to 500 words
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #3  
Old 03-15-2009, 06:13 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

You should both be able now to post
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #4  
Old 03-15-2009, 06:22 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

I have to get ready for church. I will be back later tonight and probably not until about 5:30 or 6 tomorrow PST
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #5  
Old 03-15-2009, 06:23 PM
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TK Burk TK Burk is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

500 words are fine.

I think a more profitable discussion would be “Preterism vs Futurism ‘the gap theory.’” The gap is the natural starting point to talk about these differences. However, if Sabellius does not feel comfortable with that subject, I will happily proceed with what is already proposed.

On a personal note; Sabellius, may I use your actual name during our discussion?

Sabellius, please tell me if the gap discussion is acceptable or not. I believe you are first to post. Regardless the subject matter you decide, I am ready to begin.

Jesus' best,
Bro. Burk
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The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

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  #6  
Old 03-15-2009, 06:24 PM
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TK Burk TK Burk is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
I have to get ready for church. I will be back later tonight and probably not until about 5:30 or 6 tomorrow PST
Thank you for all your time in this!
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

www.tkburk.com
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  #7  
Old 03-16-2009, 10:39 AM
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JN Anderson JN Anderson is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

500 words are fine for me as well. I prefer the debate be over the Christ of Preterism. I would be affirming that the Christ of Full Preterism (not partial) is not the Christ of Scripture and Christianity. I am affirming that this Christ is not the one the Apostolic Church is looking for with blessed hope. I will try to register using my real name if that will make it easier. I sent Praxeas a PM.
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  #8  
Old 03-16-2009, 03:26 PM
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JN Anderson JN Anderson is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

Maybe we can raise the word count? My following opening statement is over 600 words and I think that is way TOO short. TKB, would you agree to raising the limit to 700?

Last edited by JN Anderson; 03-16-2009 at 03:32 PM.
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  #9  
Old 03-16-2009, 03:29 PM
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JN Anderson JN Anderson is offline
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Opening Statement

Futurism and Preterism (Full Preterism or FP heron) have been peering at a great divide for years. This divide however usually centers upon different hermeneutic styles of the text of Scripture. Primarily the Apocalyptic and Eschatological literature (e.g. Daniel, Revelation). Upon closer examination however I contend that the Christ of Preterism is not the Apostolic Christ, nor is it then truly the Christ of Scripture.

It was not until the 2nd and 3rd Century that allegorical type hermeneutics came about through the pen of Origen. Later, in Medieval (A.D. 500-1500) times, St. Augustine viewed the Church as equal with the Kingdom of God and prophecy took on a new look. From this Preterism has evolved. The grammatical-historical method, however, should be sought by modern believers.

FP views the following Christo-centric events as past:

1. The Second Coming
2. The resurrection of the dead
3. Great White Throne judgment

TK Burk will correct any remarks he feels are in error.

The Second Coming. In FP this event occurred in the 1st Century. As believers we have no reason to expect a future literal fulfillment of passages relevant to this issue. John MacArthur states that we are “renouncing not only the plain meaning of Scripture but also every creed and doctrinal standard ever affirmed by any significant church council, denomination, or theologian in the entire history of the church.” (MacArthur)

In essence, this denies that Christ will ever return to earth in bodily form. To fulfill this request Jesus must have come spiritually and not personally, as the texts depict.

The Second Coming is no longer a hope, but a judgment. Words like “coming” (see Matthew 16:28) are misinterpreted. Such words are in the present tense of "coming" which points to the whole process of the arrival of His kingdom more so than to any particular event in the coming.

Events of the ongoing intervention of "the Coming One" in our history are now past. According to Spiros Zodhiates, “None of these events precludes a rapture or a Second Coming in final judgment. But the kingdom of God and of Christ is an eternal coming in mercy and judgment (Rev 1:4; 15:4; 17:14; 19:16).” (Zodhiates)

In FP all the judgments of Christ have been literally executed (See Revelation 9 and 16). The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not future but a real history book. Yet, one wonders when and even where such events occurred without historical record.

FP holds to the historicity and deity of Christ but obfuscate Christo-centric doctrines to the point that His coming is not sought nor His revelation of hope enjoyed. Clearly these Christocentric events have completely different meaning. This is a different Christ.

The Apostle Paul addressed a very similar error in 2 Timothy 2:17-18:

Quote:
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” ESV
These two men had “swerved from the truth” by suggesting that the resurrection of the dead has already happened. This upsets the faith of many, as the Scriptures reveal.

Paul reminds us in 2 Timothy 4:8:

Quote:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. ESV

NOTES:

The Second Coming by John MacArthur
Exegetical Commentary on Matthew by Spiros Zodhiates

Last edited by JN Anderson; 03-16-2009 at 05:02 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-16-2009, 08:33 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Christ of Preterism

I can change your nick to your name if you want. Whatever you want to do, just let me know.

600 word count sounds fine
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
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