Hebrews 13:7

jaxfam6 · #1 01-04-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxfam6
I also am very much over the "obey them that have the rule over you" statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by embonpoint
What does this scripture mean?

Well I must say I am a bit surprised. I have always heard it said OBEY them which have the rule over you. Guess what? It's NOT.

I had never had reason to really look it up or question it. I still did not look it up as even after these posts. So how did I figure it out? Our message today. Our pastor had a minor surgery a week or so ago and our assistant pastor preached today. This is one of the passages he used:
Hbr 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
Now you want to know what this scripture means? Well to me is says that we should remember them which have taught us the word of God. Obeying the word of God is something we are supposed to do because we love God. Obeying them that rule over us is certainly an option to ignore if it is not of GOD.

I posted in a different thread and then realized it could stand to be on its own.

So how many have always heard about OBEYING them that have the rule over you?

Ron · #2 01-04-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxfam6
I also am very much over the "obey them that have the rule over you" statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by embonpoint
What does this scripture mean?

Well I must say I am a bit surprised. I have always heard it said OBEY them which have the rule over you. Guess what? It's NOT.

I had never had reason to really look it up or question it. I still did not look it up as even after these posts. So how did I figure it out? Our message today. Our pastor had a minor surgery a week or so ago and our assistant pastor preached today. This is one of the passages he used:
Hbr 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
Now you want to know what this scripture means? Well to me is says that we should remember them which have taught us the word of God. Obeying the word of God is something we are supposed to do because we love God. Obeying them that rule over us is certainly an option to ignore if it is not of GOD.

I posted in a different thread and then realized it could stand to be on its own.

So how many have always heard about OBEYING them that have the rule over you?

In the KJV it is somewhat different!

Heb 13:17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

jaxfam6 · #3 01-04-2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron

In the KJV it is somewhat different!

Heb 13:17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

mine is KJV

Okay 13:17 sorry did not see the difference there

i posted from 13:7 NOT 17

so it does say about the obeying, I will have to do some more reading then to see what I think of it. =)

MissBrattified · #4 01-04-2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Well I must say I am a bit surprised. I have always heard it said OBEY them which have the rule over you. Guess what? It's NOT.

I had never had reason to really look it up or question it. I still did not look it up as even after these posts. So how did I figure it out? Our message today. Our pastor had a minor surgery a week or so ago and our assistant pastor preached today. This is one of the passages he used:
Hbr 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.

Now you want to know what this scripture means? Well to me is says that we should remember them which have taught us the word of God. Obeying the word of God is something we are supposed to do because we love God. Obeying them that rule over us is certainly an option to ignore if it is not of GOD.

There is another verse 10 verses down (13:17) which says "Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves...."

I can get "over" a commandment of men, but if God's Word says it, I feel I must pay attention. IMO, often, obeying men IS obedience to God. Even just obeying your boss at a secular job is in compliance with scriptural principle.

Obviously if any authority and God conflict, it is better to obey God than man. But there's a difference between something that would cause me to go against God, and something I simply don't want to do for another, personal (e.g., less important) reason.

Submission to my husband, for instance--it doesn't even deserve to be called submission if I only respect his wishes and authority when I agree with his decisions. There's no sacrifice in that at all.

MissBrattified · #5 01-04-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Sorry bro but that is KJV

No, jax, the KJV says "remember" in verse 7 and "obey/submit" in verse 17.

Hebrews 13:7 (KJV) "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God, whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

By the way, what do you think it means by the phrase, "whose faith follow?"

jaxfam6 · #6 01-04-2009, 10:20 PM

Okay I went to the scripture and this is what I found.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

here is the Greek

peithō hēgeomai hymōn kai hypeikō gar autos (okay I only needed the first word so I am done adding the rest of the Greek, go look it up for yourself if you that interested)

peithō

1) persuade

a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one

c) to tranquillise

d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2) be persuaded

a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1) to believe

2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

So the word means to persuade or be persuaded and then there is a line about listen to, obey, yield to, comply with.

Here was an interesting point about the use of this word in the KJV, the use of the this particular word is translate differently throughout the Bible.
persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3, be confident 2, miscellaneous 7

I will need to look these up and see why they used the different words instead of OBEY for every instance. Also I found that the word obey has 5 different words in the Greek that was used in the KJV. The others pretty much stand for OBEY or submit, submission. Why then does this one use of the word get used 7 different times? I really do need to look the other locations and see if there is something about them that could actually mean persuade or be persauded as in this particular instance.

jaxfam6 · #7 01-04-2009, 10:28 PM

Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Ga 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Okay these are the locations I need to do more reading on. The other locations all would be better served to use the words persuasion in place of obey.

MissBrattified · #8 01-04-2009, 10:30 PM

I don't think ANY of the usages refer to blind (e.g., ignorant and unconditional) obedience.

The context is that we should respect our elders, defer to their wisdom, follow in their footsteps, and submit to their authority.

By the way, "whose faith follow"...."follow" means:

(a “mimic”); to imitate: - follow.

"Submit yourselves"..."submit" means:

hupeikō - (to yield, be “weak”); to surrender: - submit self.

This, to me, bears out the principle of submission, which is to sacrifice my personal desires or wishes in deference to another. To submit self.

Even my children, though, don't have to obey unconditionally. Obviously if I give them some harebrained instruction like, "Run into the road" or "Eat glass", they are right to disobey.

MissBrattified · #9 01-04-2009, 10:32 PM

Well, I see the use of persuasion or "be persuaded" as fitting just fine. On the side of a leader, it is their place to persuade and influence, not be a "lord over God's heritage" or a demanding, forceful dictator. On the side of the person under authority, submission is allowing yourself to be persuaded to another's point of view or wishes, but that doesn't mean you have to hand in your brain and be a doormat.

Scott Hutchinson · #10 01-04-2009, 10:42 PM

I understand this passage to mean to obey what the scriptures say as those who instruct you In The Lord teach you the word.

In other words obey the biblical instruction that comes from your Christian leadership.
This doesn't you have obey just anything the pastor or Elders say but obey the scriptures as your leadership in The Lord teach you the word.