The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by consapente89

Okay I get your point, but that's not how it works. I'm sure you realize that. Your arguments are ludicrous. The tithe is used at the Pastor's discretion. If he has an assistant, and wants to pay his assistant out of the tithe, it is within his discretion to do so. If he wants to pay the evangelist out of the tithe, that is also his choice. Even in tithing churches with multiple "pastors", not every "pastor" receives 10%. I'm sure you know that.

Bottom line, you want no real pastor but many mini pastors living on little income.

Okay, brother. Could you please post some scripture? Please? I’m trying to mind my manners.

Or would you prefer that I just take your word for it?

Thank you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Could you perhaps post scripture?

I have some questions for you.

Since the plan of God is for one man in authority over the church (as you believe). Can you show me examples in the scripture of this design?

Who was the one man who was in authority (as pastor) over the church of Thessalonica?

Rome?

Jerusalem?

Ephesus?

Jerusalem?

I’m not trying to discredit you. If what you say is true, and it has always been God’s design as you say, it shouldn’t be any problem for you to name ALL of the pastors of the New Testament churches.

I’ll wait.

Romans 16:3-5, 2 Timothy 1:16, Col 4:15, and Philemon 1:2.
Key people are brought to our attention which were the ministers in their own homes. Saints gathered in these houses and met. We see in 3 John 1:9 that a individual who was an elder was over the congregation. The big problem was which John points out to Gaius is that Diotrephes LOVED BEING FIRST AMONG MANY. When dealing with Church governance we must start with this small letter from John the Apostle. Commending an elder who was most likely working with Diotrephes. Aquila was head over his household, as were the rest of these ministers. All accountable to each other. But they were not to be the head, but they were to be the feet. Ministering to the church family, and helping the neophytes grow as little children to young men, and ultimately into elders themselves. I think that we miss the point, by looking at the bug on the ecclesiastical leaf, and missing the forest of the Bible's truth.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Okay, brother. Could you please post some scripture? Please? I’m trying to mind my manners.

Or would you prefer that I just take your word for it?

Thank you.

Maybe you can calm the waters by instead of telling everyone what they aren't supposed to do to support ministry. Tell everyone how we are to Biblically support the ministry and church family.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Romans 16:3-5, 2 Timothy 1:16, Col 4:15, and Philemon 1:2.
Key people are brought to our attention which were the ministers in their own homes. Saints gathered in these houses and met. We see in 3 John 1:9 that a individual who was an elder was over the congregation. The big problem was which John points out to Gaius is that Diotrephes LOVED BEING FIRST AMONG MANY. When dealing with Church governance we must start with this small letter from John the Apostle. Commending an elder who was most likely working with Diotrephes. Aquila was head over his household, as were the rest of these ministers. All accountable to each other. But they were not to be the head, but they were to be the feet. Ministering to the church family, and helping the neophytes grow as little children to young men, and ultimately into elders themselves. I think that we miss the point, by looking at the bug on the ecclesiastical leaf, and missing the forest of the Bible's truth.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

It is OK to deliberate with a council of wise, Spirit-filled elders. Isn't that what the UPCI do anyways in their General Conference?

Here is an example from the scripture of a group deliberating about doctrinal issues:

[Act 15:6-7, 23, 28 NKJV] 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up [and] said to them: "Men [and] brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. ... 23 They wrote this [letter] by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. ... 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

Those cases are actually rare. Local assembly business issues, don't you do those already with more than one person anyways? trustees?
Standard issues, how often do you have to deliberate about those, really?
Most of the time, the team is more about sharing the load than about deliberating.

Brother, allow me to commend you for posting scripture that is relevant to the subject at hand. I really appreciate it.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother,

I just don’t know what to say. The spirit or attitude that seems to be behind your posts bothers me. I sincerely apologize if I come across as cocky, brash, condescending etc.. I honestly have had some of these thoughts about you as well.

But, I also have a feeling that if we got together, we would have a wonderful time. I don’t believe we would fuss about everything. We probably would be great friends as well as brothers. I obviously need to dial it back. I’m not going to apologize for what I believe, but I will apologize for my delivery, sincerely. Brother, I believed essentially what you do at one point. So I understand where you’re coming from. But as I studied the Bible, I saw that my beliefs didn’t align with scripture. I was wrong. So I changed my belief. But I don’t want to be cocky and all that.

I must admit that your insinuation that I am “conceded” because of my high education bothered me, and it also amused me. I can assure you that I am not highly educated, and that my education is certainly no reason for me to be conceited. I suspect that you don’t have any reason to be concerned either, along those lines. But I apologize for being perceived as conceited and condescending. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let the person take heed.

Now, maybe we could get together and shoot ducts or something?

By the way, just wondering if you actually eat those things? I’m not a duck hunter, but I know some who are, and it seems to me that they love to shoot ducks, and they will put them in the freezer, but they dread eating them?

I do have a recipe for duck that’s not too bad.

Anyway brother, sincere apologies. I’ll try to do better.

I’d rather have duck than steak.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I’d rather have duck than steak.

http://www.piwesthunting.com/

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Maybe you can calm the waters by instead of telling everyone what they aren't supposed to do to support ministry. Tell everyone how we are to Biblically support the ministry and church family.

I’d like to clarify something. I don’t generally go around telling people not to tithe. I usually focus on what people teach about tithing. If the teaching is in line with scripture, the rest will fall into place, I believe. This is born out, it seems to me, by the fact that most of those opposing me are receiving tithes. They also seem to be teaching something that they are not able to support with scripture, judging by the lack of scripture posted to support their position.

Otherwise, I think it’s a great idea EB. I’m a little gun shy though. Because the scripture I would quote to support ministry, is the same ones they use to support tithing.

So how about for starters . . .

17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

It seems to me that this use of honor is more in line with what we would refer to as an honorarium. I don’t believe it is talking about accolades, but an offering in appreciation. I think it indicates free will, or even perhaps a negotiated amount. But the fact that it mentions double honor says (to me) that it is not a set percentage. Because, a tithe is a tithe. If you double it, it would become two tithes.

Also, it indicates (especially), that it is somewhat subjective. As in not automatic.

Whatcha think?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I’d like to clarify something. I don’t generally go around telling people not to tithe. I usually focus on what people teach about tithing. If the teaching is in line with scripture, the rest will fall into place, I believe. This is born out, it seems to me, by the fact that most of those opposing me are receiving tithes. They also seem to be teaching something that they are not able to support with scripture, judging by the lack of scripture posted to support their position.

Otherwise, I think it’s a great idea EB. I’m a little gun shy though. Because the scripture I would quote to support ministry, is the same ones they use to support tithing.

So how about for starters . . .

17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

It seems to me that this use of honor is more in line with what we would refer to as an honorarium. I don’t believe it is talking about accolades, but an offering in appreciation. I think it indicates free will, or even perhaps a negotiated amount. But the fact that it mentions double honor says (to me) that it is not a set percentage. Because, a tithe is a tithe. If you double it, it would become two tithes.

Also, it indicates (especially), that it is somewhat subjective. As in not automatic.

Whatcha think?

Here is what I found individuals doing who taught no more tithes but taught the double honor, or double portion. some took it as 20% but others believed it was as much as you were able to give, or take. Still, while some who are on the receiving end get happy about the pay increase, this is what Paul is trying to say. He emphasises that he preaches the Gospel without charge, meaning he ( or we) are never to ask for it from the saints, the neophytes, and church family. We are to teach, preach, but never ask, and therefore by Jesus laying it upon the hearts of those who are truly of the Body, then we receive support. In 3 John the apostle tells Gaius that the ministers were to take NOTHING from the pagans as far as support. Therefore the ministers understand that God is the provider. Just like God commanded Elijah to makes the odds greater for the prophets of BAAL 1 Kings 18:33. That Elijah watered down his sacrifice to the place that no fire to consume it, ONLY the fire from God 1 Kings 18:38. How the armies of Israel were whittled down to a select few Judges 7:7, the same way we are to never ask for the support. As to not make our glorying void 1 Corinthians 9:15. No one knows how to supply as well as God, and therefore when the saints love their brethren, and are focusing on Jesus Christ, they will do as the Lord moves them to do.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I’d like to clarify something. I don’t generally go around telling people not to tithe. I usually focus on what people teach about tithing. If the teaching is in line with scripture, the rest will fall into place, I believe. This is born out, it seems to me, by the fact that most of those opposing me are receiving tithes. They also seem to be teaching something that they are not able to support with scripture, judging by the lack of scripture posted to support their position.

Otherwise, I think it’s a great idea EB. I’m a little gun shy though. Because the scripture I would quote to support ministry, is the same ones they use to support tithing.

So how about for starters . . .

17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

It seems to me that this use of honor is more in line with what we would refer to as an honorarium. I don’t believe it is talking about accolades, but an offering in appreciation. I think it indicates free will, or even perhaps a negotiated amount. But the fact that it mentions double honor says (to me) that it is not a set percentage. Because, a tithe is a tithe. If you double it, it would become two tithes.

Also, it indicates (especially), that it is somewhat subjective. As in not automatic.

Whatcha think?

Beside individual efforts, the examples of giving from church-wide efforts (collections) are to three recipients:

* Saints:
[1Co 16:1 NKJV] 1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:
[1Ti 5:3 NKJV] 3 Honor widows who are really widows.
[Act 6:1 NKJV] 1 Now in those days, when [the number of] the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists, because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution.
[2Co 8:1-4 NKJV] 1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia: 2 that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality. 3 For I bear witness that according to [their] ability, yes, and beyond [their] ability, [they were] freely willing, 4 imploring us with much urgency that we would receive the gift and the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

* Assembly elders (jewish term)/overseers (hellenistic term):
[1Ti 5:17 NKJV] 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
[1Pe 5:1-2 NKJV] 1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;

* Missionaries:
[Phl 4:17-18 NKJV] 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account. 18 Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things [sent] from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God.

How the saints give:

* Attitude:
[2Co 9:7 NKJV] 7 [So let] each one [give] as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

* As you prosper (no a fix percentage here, 10% to a poor means a lot more than 10% to a rich, common sense):
[1Co 16:2 NKJV] 2 On the first [day] of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

* Sacrificially, at times:
[2Co 8:3 NKJV] 3 For I bear witness that according to [their] ability, yes, and beyond [their] ability, [they were] freely willing,

Attitude of a minister: How the minister receives the offering it is also an important thing. There shouldn't be a demand, and imposing preaching from the pulpit to support. There shouldn't be an attitude of "if you don't support me I won't work". Mention the needs as Paul did for the saints in Jerusalem and let the saints propose themselves to give.

Paul even went as far as to not ask or mention it to the new saints for himself. Instead he worked with his own hands. He waited for them to come up with the idea and the promise to give.

[Phl 4:15-17 NKJV] 15 Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent [aid] once and again for my necessities. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account.

[1Pe 5:2 NKJV] 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
[1Ti 3:3 NKJV] 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
[2Th 3:8-9 NKJV] 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, 9 not because we do not have authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us.
[1Co 9:4, 11-12, 14-15 NKJV] 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? ... 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, [is it] a great thing if we reap your material things? 12 If others are partakers of [this] right over you, [are] we not even more? Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ. ... 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel. 15 But I have used none of these things, nor have I written these things that it should be done so to me; for it [would be] better for me to die than that anyone should make my boasting void.

-----

The closest I have seen to this is Faith Promises Missions from the UPCI. They every year present the results, and the need, and then the saints pray and propose an amount in their heart to give through out the year, even sacrificially, because they are moved to give. And also that way, the ministers can plan ahead and budget because they have the promise forms filled by the saints.