Charismatic Sweep

[Truthseeker]

Stay humble, no one today is full 100% apostolic. Only those who think they are.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Be quiet, men are talking doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

1. We've been round and round about your and the evangelicals false and historically incorrect understanding of the Pentecostal Finished Work view of entire sanctification. Once again your mischaracterization and utter lack of interest in at least using historically accurate terms and definitions means you simply have an agenda that is NOT focused on truth and accuracy.

I am referring to the Evangelical "finished work" doctrine. I have encountered and opposed it many times against its Preachers. I teach sinless perfection from Jesus and the Apostles.

2. Your failure to answer questions about your doctrine is NOT about you giving explanations I don't agree with. It's about you cutting and running and refusing to even respond to questions, like "if all things were made by the logos, but the logos was also made, then the logos made the logos, right?" etc.

I have directed you to what I teach on the subject. I have multiple threads on the forum on the topic. I cannot make it any clearer than using scripture. If you want me to just use my own words and attempt to explain it in a few sentences apart from scripture let me know.

3. I ALWAYS answer questions put to me about what I teach, EXCEPT when the questioner has already refused to answer questions put to them.

If so why does not everyone who you say you answer questions for agree with you? Is it not because you may not be answering the questions accurately?

4. Sinless perfection means no sin. Sin is the transgression of the law, including the Fourth Commandment. So no, you and I do NOT agree on the doctrine of Christian perfection. You, like many others, redefine sin to exclude things you practice and allow, like Sabbath breaking.

There are plenty of refutations to the fact Christians are not under the law of Moses on the Forum. Several threads are up as we speak in the Deep Waters section. Some of the posts are by me. If you answer all questions why have you not converted lets say Mike Blume to law keeping? Could it be he like myself and others dont find your answers to be "answers" ON THIS TOPIC?

No doubt you DO have real answers on some topics which I respect and appreciate.

Should we start another thread about whether the New Covenant Christian is under the law? Or should I go to you and Mike Blumes thread already in process?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I have directed you to what I teach on the subject. I have multiple threads on the forum on the topic. I cannot make it any clearer than using scripture. If you want me to just use my own words and attempt to explain it in a few sentences apart from scripture let me know.

If the logos made ALL THINGS THAT WERE MADE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, and the logos itself was made, then how is that not saying the logos made itself?

If so why does not everyone who you say you answer questions for agree with you? Is it not because you may not be answering the questions accurately?

Really? Are you under the impression that if you just answer questions perfectly the questioner will AGREE with you? I never claimed that. I DO however actually try to answer questions. You have a question to you that has been pending across multiple threads for quite some time now. Would you like to try to answer it?

There are plenty of refutations to the fact Christians are not under the law of Moses on the Forum. Several threads are up as we speak in the Deep Waters section. Some of the posts are by me. If you answer all questions why have you not converted lets say Mike Blume to law keeping? Could it be he like myself and others dont find your answers to be "answers" ON THIS TOPIC?

Neither I nor anybody else on this forum claims anybody is "under the law of Moses". You don't see the need to obey the ten commandments because you want your Saturdays for yourself to do what you want without the Word dictating what you ought or ought not to do. Has nothing to do with me answering questions. Again, answering questions does not equate to succcessfully convincing anyone of anything. I never said it did.

But I notice you love you some straw men and red herrings. Tells me you either can't follow the discussion or don't wanna face the holes in your teachings.

No doubt you DO have real answers on some topics which I respect and appreciate.

See? The only "real answers" anybody can give you are those you ALREADY AGREE WITH! How you can't see the problem with that is mind blowing. Perhaps the answers God has been sending your way are the ones the rub your flesh the wrong way? Like God calling from heaven "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy"?

Should we start another thread about whether the New Covenant Christian is under the law? Or should I go to you and Mike Blumes thread already in process?

Who did you play in the Wizard of Oz?

Anyways, nobody is under the law of Moses. That never was the issue. Do you think saying "As a Christian you must obey God's Word" is being a Judaizer? Legalist? Works salvation? Sound familiar? You are sounding just like the evangelical antinomians you complain about.

[Michael The Disciple]

If the logos made ALL THINGS THAT WERE MADE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, and the logos itself was made, then how is that not saying the logos made itself?

Before creation God was invisible omnipresent Spirit. He was alone and by himself. No one existed with him so he had no need for a form. At or before the creation he formed, created, or begat a visible image of HIMSELF to manifest his presence to that which he would make.

The Logos was Gods image not the totality of Gods essence. It was the omnipresent Spirit that brought forth the Logos not the other way around.

That which was IN THE LOGOS created all things THROUGH THE LOGOS.

God himself was the Logos. God made all things alone and by himself through the Logos.

Really? Are you under the impression that if you just answer questions perfectly the questioner will AGREE with you? I never claimed that. I DO however actually try to answer questions.

That is my point to you. My answer was given in various threads on the forum with scripture with which you disagreed. When you accuse someone of not answering a question it APPEARS that means its not answered IN YOUR understanding.

Having said that I will not go over and over and over in a discussion something that I believe I have answered the best I know how already. Now if someone new comes into the discussion I may go over it anew as in the last Logos thread on this very topic. Otherwise there probably is no point in telling someone the same thing over and over when they have already rejected it.

Neither I nor anybody else on this forum claims anybody is "under the law of Moses".

Strange. In the Hyper Grace thread you did that very thing in an attack against me using 1 John 3:4.

See? The only "real answers" anybody can give you are those you ALREADY AGREE WITH! How you can't see the problem with that is mind blowing.

Hmmm I COULD say the same about you!

I would inject this into what you said. I am one who has changed practically EVERYTHING I started out believing. It was in cases where I was taught things and accepted them as true but later on when scripture was pointed out in more of a rightly divided way I was able by Gods grace to change and move on.

Who did you play in the Wizard of Oz?

Anyways, nobody is under the law of Moses. That never was the issue. Do you think saying "As a Christian you must obey God's Word" is being a Judaizer? Legalist? Works salvation? Sound familiar? You are sounding just like the evangelical antinomians you complain about.

Well if we are not under the law of Moses obviously we are not required to keep Sabbath. Its nowhere else taught in the Bible except in reference to the law of Moses.

A "Judaizer" in common discussion is one trying to bring people under the law of Moses. That is what you SEEM to be doing by teaching the Sabbath.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Before creation God was invisible omnipresent Spirit. He was alone and by himself. No one existed with him so he had no need for a form. At or before the creation he formed, created, or begat a visible image of HIMSELF to manifest his presence to that which he would make.

The Logos was Gods image not the totality of Gods essence. It was the omnipresent Spirit that brought forth the Logos not the other way around.

That which was IN THE LOGOS created all things THROUGH THE LOGOS.

God himself was the Logos. God made all things alone and by himself through the Logos.

So the logos didn't make all things, rather God made all things while sitting inside the logos? Except the logos itself, which was made by Not-The-Logos? So the Logos didn't make ALL things?

Okay, thanks for your answer. From what you said, it is clear you do not believe that "everything that was made, was made by the Word". It also seems clear you believe the Word was not "in the beginning". And that the Word was not in fact GOD. Although you then say "God Himself was the Logos" which contradicts your statements about the logos being a thing God made. So my conclusion is you are confused.

Well if we are not under the law of Moses obviously we are not required to keep it. Its nowhere else taught in the Bible except in reference to the law of Moses.

Like the prohibition against bestiality? Is the Third Commandment "taught in the Bible" anywhere "except in reference to the law of Moses"?

When God said He would make a new covenant, and write His laws in the hearts and minds of His people, did He mean "I will write some new laws in their hearts"? Or "I will write most of my laws in the hearts but not all"? What did He mean?

And what does this passage mean to you, especially verse 7?

Romans 8:3-9 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

A "Judaizer" in common discussion is one trying to bring people under the law of Moses. That is what you SEEM to be doing by teaching the Sabbath.

So are you a judaizer because you seem to be trying to bring people under the law of Moses by teaching One God and no idolatry?

[Michael The Disciple]

Charismatic Sweep?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So the logos didn't make all things, rather God made all things while sitting inside the logos? Except the logos itself, which was made by Not-The-Logos? So the Logos didn't make ALL things?

Okay, thanks for your answer. From what you said, it is clear you do not believe that "everything that was made, was made by the Word". It also seems clear you believe the Word was not "in the beginning". And that the Word was not in fact GOD. Although you then say "God Himself was the Logos" which contradicts your statements about the logos being a thing God made. So my conclusion is you are confused.







Like the prohibition against bestiality? Is the Third Commandment "taught in the Bible" anywhere "except in reference to the law of Moses"?

When God said He would make a new covenant, and write His laws in the hearts and minds of His people, did He mean "I will write some new laws in their hearts"? Or "I will write most of my laws in the hearts but not all"? What did He mean?

And what does this passage mean to you, especially verse 7?

Romans 8:3-9 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



So are you a judaizer because you seem to be trying to bring people under the law of Moses by teaching One God and no idolatry?

So a minute ago you were saying no one is saying we must keep the law of Moses. Now we are.

Seeing this is someone elses thread about a topic he choose maybe a new thread on Moses law and the New Covenant Church should be established.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Charismatic Sweep?

It's how Benny Hinn dusts the house.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So a minute ago you were saying no one is saying we must keep the law of Moses. Now we are.

Seeing this is someone elses thread about a topic he choose maybe a new thread on Moses law and the New Covenant Church should be established.

Wow, the 70s really did a number on you.