I love being Apostolic!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I John 2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2..He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John writes this to Christians. It appears he is conceding that Christians sin. So how disobedient can you be?

Are not the scriptures I posted (by the same apostle) of at least equal force as the one you posted? If there ever has been a balance between the two areas of truth they represent it must have been before I was a Christian in 1974.

Practically all the preaching I have ever heard has been about how merciful God is and no one can be perfect. One would have to preach holiness and perfection every day for years to get back to the Biblical balance.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I John 2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2..He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John writes this to Christians. It appears he is conceding that Christians sin. So how disobedient can you be?

It does say IF anybody sins. It does NOT concede that all Christians will sin.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I would not want to try to test that.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted , and were destroyed of serpents. 1 Cor. 10:9

My point is to make a relationship with God about obedience/disobedience falls short of what being a child of God is. You can't be obedient enough, and you won't be able keep from disobeying enough. "To as many as received Him to them He gave power to become the children of God. (John 1:12)

Whether my child obeys me or not, they are my child, period. My children are obedient most of the time. Sometimes they aren't. But because we love each other they live securely that even in disobedience they have my love and forgiveness anytime they need it. Because we love each other I know that they want to please me and be obedient in their hearts. I know they are well intentioned and I extend to them room for error because they are human. It's about love and trust. They love and trust me. I love and trust them. Unconditionally. No strings.

That simple.

If I can love like that as a mere mortal, how great is Gods love and grace towards us?

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It does say IF anybody sins. It does NOT concede that all Christians will sin.

Are there any Christians that don't sin?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Are you joking?

I can't help myself.


Ok, maybe not condemning them, but their actions?


Which was sinful.


Right?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Are there any Christians that don't sin?

There are very few.

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved ? And he said unto them,24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in , and shall not be able . Luke 13:23-24

So Jesus said at least A FEW WILL BE SAVED.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Are not the scriptures I posted (by the same apostle) of at least equal force as the one you posted? If there ever has been a balance between the two areas of truth they represent it must have been before I was a Christian in 1974.

Practically all the preaching I have ever heard has been about how merciful God is and no one can be perfect. One would have to preach holiness and perfection every day for years to get back to the Biblical balance.

Jesus is the balance. Grace and truth. Since Gods Word goes back far beyond 1974, we need to consider that we had thousands of years of God's commandments, laws, decrees, precepts, statutes, etc. to prove the point that He hates sin and will punish the sinner. Jesus fulfilled the law and became sin for us so that all of Gods fury for our sins could be poured out upon Him. We now walk by faith with our trust in His righteousness not in obedience/disobedience. Or I should say we place our trust in Christ's obedience.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

My point is to make a relationship with God about obedience/disobedience falls short of what being a child of God is. You can't be obedient enough, and you won't be able keep from disobeying enough. "To as many as received Him to them He gave power to become the children of God. (John 1:12)

Whether my child obeys me or not, they are my child, period. My children are obedient most of the time. Sometimes they aren't. But because we love each other they live securely that even in disobedience they have my love and forgiveness anytime they need it. Because we love each other I know that they want to please me and be obedient in their hearts. I know they are well intentioned and I extend to them room for error because they are human. It's about love and trust. They love and trust me. I love and trust them. Unconditionally. No strings.

That simple.

If I can love like that as a mere mortal, how great is Gods love and grace towards us?

Simple? Yes. But ignores a whole lot of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

For instance Paul does not at all promote the analogy you do about "unconditional" love.

9Wherefore we labour , that, whether present or absent , we may be accepted of him.10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done , whether it be good or bad.11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Cor. 5:9-11

He does not give anyone hope on the basis of the present day deception of "unconditional" love.

[Michael The Disciple]

We now walk by faith with our trust in His righteousness not in obedience/disobedience. Or I should say we place our trust in Christ's obedience.

But if one wants to have eternal life THEY THEMSELVES must do the will of God.

And the world passeth away , and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:17

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

Yeah because the Bible says God doesnt look at the outside...just the heart. Right?

I want to make myself clear on this point, here, because I'm tired of certain things being said in the church. I have no problem with the preaching of outward holiness. I believe outward Holiness is as important as inward, that the two go hand in hand and that if one claims to be saved one must be separate from the world. I understand THIS POINT. However, I want to make something clear, what I do have a problem with is when we turn our own traditions into holiness matters.

I DO have a problem with one church not fellow-shipping with another church simply because the pastor has facial hair and the women wear/don't wear veils. I DO have a problem with television, men wearing shorts, playing football, and women dying their hair becoming a "holiness" issue. I also respect every pastor's right to establish standards in their churches, and will respect those standards, however unless it IS a Heaven or Hell issue, it shouldn't even be a source of argument and Pentecostals have to realize that television is not going to send people to Hell, THE TELEVISION SHOWS people watch aren't going to send people to Hell.

Sin sends people to Hell.

If you are sinning, you are going to Hell. You are not going to Hell for watching the news on television, wearing shorts in 90 degree weather at an amusement park, or playing college basketball. I think we've gotten so wrapped up in our traditions we've forgotten that the Bible doesn't say anything about half of what we spend time barking about, while people are dying in their sins. It gets to the point where our churches are trying to prove which church has the members which are the "most separate" from the world. By abstaining from SIN we are already separate from the world. Yes there are some things that are Biblically sound and universal to the church. However, there's so much added to the church now that we've forgotten that there's actually a Bible we can read, that will tell us what the Apostles preached. The Apostles preached Jesus. The Apostles did set the church straight on many doctrinal issues, but many things were left up to the Pastors and to the individual in deciding what to do regarding certain societal issues.

If Paul came back today we'd have to sit him down and catch him up on the vast technological, social, and economic changes that have occurred since the first century. And yeah... I hear you "Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Here's the thing I want to know on what grounds and authority the UPC has to speak on Christ's behalf against television? There was none in Paul's day, but there is now. There were no cars. There were no laptops, and iphones, and ipads. I believe that if Paul saw this generation he'd think the church as a whole was a joke. He'd hit every street he could, get on every television station that'd let him on, learn everything he possibly could about every single culture he could experience and preach what he preached in his day: HE PREACHED JESUS. And he'd preach it from the WORD OF GOD not from printed tracts.

How do I come to this conclusion? When Paul got saved he went into the desert in Arabia for years learning about nothing but Christ. Read 1 Corinthians 9:20-21 when he talks about becoming like a Jew to reach the Jews and like the gentiles to reach the gentiles. He studied society, he studied cultures, he observed and then he reached those cultures one by one. His mission was to reach out to the lost and establish churches. In this society I think Paul would put 90% of modern Apostolic churches to shame when it comes to preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ effectively. Because he wouldn't be so focused on stuff that does nothing for the gospel like TV, he'd be interested in saving souls.