The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits - Page 88

stmatthew · #**871** 02-25-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

No I think he's pointing out that Ultracons when unable to rightly divide the Word ... will throw out labels like "believe only" doctrine ....

Quote:

Abraham's faith (not his person) was justified by what he did.

This is the basis for his skipping over the book of James. It does not line up with what is plainly stated in James. NOWHERE does James imply that a persons faith is justified. It is a rediculous statement to begin with. Faith is not unjust, or in need of justification. Faith is in need of works to be perfected, or complete. Until a person has works, their faith is incomplete, and unable to bring justification into their lives.

SDG · #**872** 02-25-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stmatthew

This is the basis for his skipping over the book of James. It does not line up with what is plainly stated in James. NOWHERE does James imply that a persons faith is justified. It is a rediculous statement to begin with. Faith is not unjust, or in need of justification. Faith is in need of works to be perfected, or complete. Until a person has works, their faith is incomplete, and unable to bring justification into their lives.

In this context Matt justified means validated .... nothing more ... nothing less ... I don't see how you think by stating that faith is not unjust ... some how eliminates my argument .... works follow faith ... we must obey but we do so because of love ... it's not performance that declares me justified before God ... sorry ...

stmatthew · #**873** 02-25-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

In this context Matt justified means validated .... nothing more ... nothing less ... I don't see how you think by stating that faith is not unjust ... some how eliminates my argument .... works follow faith ... we must obey but we do so because of love ... it's not performance that declares me justified before God ... sorry ...

So you are stating that a persons faith is validated by their works?? That would imply that if they do not have works that their faith is invalid.

The whole point James makes is that one without the other is not enough to justify a man, or cause him to have righteousness imputed upon him.

As one singer stated, "Faith without works is like a screen door on a submarine. It just ain't happening".

SDG · #**874** 02-25-2007, 04:39 PM

Matt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When have I said such a thing ??????

This is from one of my previous quotes to you about 3 pages ago ....

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I know ... this is when you follow up ... with but faith without works is dead ... you're absolutely right .... but my faith doesn't validate my works ... my works validate my faith ... it's through faith that I obey and receive the benefits of Acts 2:38 and the rest of God's promises throughout the Scriptures

SDG · #**875** 02-25-2007, 04:44 PM

Hence this has been my argument .... Abraham's works validated his faith ... his faith does not validate his works ....

SDG · #**876** 02-25-2007, 04:46 PM

Matt do you even remember why we came to James 2???

Brett Prince · #**877** 02-25-2007, 04:47 PM

How about we stopped saying "faith is validated," but rather, "our faith shows itself 'real' or that it is 'living faith' shown forth?"

Works DO validate faith. We show our faith BY our works. But, works without faith are dead works--leading to nothing.

stmatthew · #**878** 02-25-2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Matt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When have I said such a thing ??????

This is from one of my previous quotes to you about 3 pages ago ....

I think we are missing each other here.

I believe that James states plainly that a man is justified (made in right standing with God) by faith that has corresponding works. It is the works that validate the faith as being living faith. No works = dead faith.

I see James as stating that Abraham was justified when he took Isaac upon the mountain to be sacrificed, and not merely when he believed God was able to raise him. James brings the balance to Pauls discourse on faith by stating that by the works, the faith is made complete, or perfected. Though it is faith that brings the reward, without the works the reward will not come, because faith is not completed.

Hence, I do not believe a person is saved just because they believe (have faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ. I understand that to have true faith demands that one have works. Salvation is based on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. But our partaking of that salvation is based on our faith and our response (works).

Gotta git ready for church.

stmatthew · #**879** 02-25-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Hence this has been my argument .... Abraham's works validated his faith ... his faith does not validate his works ....

So without works no man can be justified. Because as James says "faith wrought with his (Abraham's) works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

SDG · #**880** 02-25-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I think we are missing each other here.

I believe that James states plainly that a man is justified (made in right standing with God) by faith that has corresponding works. It is the works that validate the faith as being living faith. No works = dead faith.

I see James as stating that Abraham was justified when he took Isaac upon the mountain to be sacrificed, and not merely when he believed God was able to raise him. James brings the balance to Pauls discourse on faith by stating that by the works, the faith is made complete, or perfected. Though it is faith that brings the reward, without the works the reward will not come, because faith is not completed.

Hence, I do not believe a person is saved just because they believe (have faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ. I understand that to have true faith demands that one have works. Salvation is based on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. But our partaking of that salvation is based on our faith and our response (works).

Gotta git ready for church.

We agree .. this is where we differ ... you say that faith demand our works ... and I say that true faith results in works ... interestingly ... when James brings up this discussion it's not about the 3-step salvation package sold by many ... notice verses 14-19 .... discuss how if we do not love our brother with deeds our faith is dead, or not real thang....

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14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

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Let it be known ... so not to be misconstrued ... I believe that true faith will result in works ...the works will not make me right with God ... they are products of His righteousness ... if I willfully disobey any part of God's word ... Acts 2:38 and every other God-breathed scripture ... then I do not believe and will be condemned ... oh ... but thank you Lord for your grace and mercy.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast