All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Can you please tell us where Cornelius "got saved" before he received the Holy Ghost? Seriously. This is a make or break point.

.

I don't need to because I didn't say that. No one "gets saved" before they receive the Holy Ghost.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by obriencp

You state an assumption and then claim it as fact?

to my knowledge NO ONE has been able to trace what the OPs state as doctrine through the ages. NO ONE has been able to find a small sect, small movement, small church prior to the 20th century that has ascribed to all three of the following: Repentance, Water Baptism in Jesus Name to have your sins remitted, and being filled with the HG with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. There have been some "OP" elements through the ages, but not all 3 at the same time.

So either the "Gates of Hell prevailed," which we all know is impossible.

-Or... your definition of the Church is not as exclusive as you think.

Reference your statement I've highlighted ...

If that be true, then are you not stating that Jesus Christ lied when He told Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church, else your statement is an ASSUMPTION?

Jesus didn't tell Peter that there would be "some" of His saints in the future who would have certain elements of truth, but not all of them.

Any group of people who do not possess ALL of the elements of salvation you've noted, CANNOT be called His church!

Yes, there are historical records which give evidence of the existence of God's True Church since its beginning, even during the era known as the Dark Ages. The problem appears to be that you haven't researched the matter (its well past my bedtime, but if The Lord is willing, when I awaken in the morning I will provide that evidence to you).

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Reference your statement I've highlighted ...

If that be true, then are you not stating that Jesus Christ lied when He told Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church, else your statement is an ASSUMPTION?

Jesus didn't tell Peter that there would be "some" of His saints in the future who would have certain elements of truth, but not all of them.

Any group of people who do not possess ALL of the elements of salvation you've noted, CANNOT be called His church!

Yes, there are historical records which give evidence of the existence of God's True Church since its beginning, even during the era known as the Dark Ages. The problem appears to be that you haven't researched the matter (its well past my bedtime, but if The Lord is willing, when I awaken in the morning I will provide that evidence to you).

You are operating from a place of gross ignorance.

Read this passage. Where does Jesus promise an unbroken chain of succession?

Matthew 16 KJV

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You, and others like you, take that last statement miles out of context.

First, the only uninterrupted church is the believing church. That is verifiable. Everything else is speculation.

Second, there is a reason why the early Penteciotal pioneers called this "The New Issue." There is a reason why they called the Oneness of God a revelation. That reason is because NO ONE had preached the full package you guys preach, and attached salvation to it. There is no historical record of such a group.

For a group to be considered Apostolic they would have to practice baptism and preach tongues with the same emphasis as modern Apostolics. They would also have to believe in the Oneness of God and preach against drinking. Good luck finding a historical group like that because our modern view regarding alcohol is vastly different from the historical Christian view. Most historical Christian groups would be disqualified as "Apostolics" because they drank alcohol socially.

Third, what is behind this attempt to prove that your message has always been? Even DKB says you're wrong.

[Charnock]

Let's consider the text from Matthew 16.

Although they had never been given a living, visible illustration of God as their rock, the idea of God as our rock was nothing new to Jesus’ disciples because the metaphor is used multiple times throughout the Old and New Testaments.

“He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He” (Deuteronomy 32:4).

Here in the song of Moses, which God instructed him to write for the children of Israel as they were about to enter the promised land, is the first of at least 40 references in the Bible to God as the Rock. There are four others just in this song. In verse 15, He is the “Rock of (Israel’s) salvation.” In verse 18, He is “the Rock that begat thee.”

Later, we receive word pictures of God as our great foundation stone.
He is “my strong Rock” in Psalm 31:2, and “the Rock that is higher than I” in Psalm 61:2. In Psalm 62:7, He is “the Rock of my strength” and “the Rock of my refuge” in Psalm 94:22. The prophet Isaiah calls Him “a great Rock in a weary land” and “the Rock whence ye are hewn” (Isaiah 32:2; 51:1).

After leaving Egypt, during the forty years in the wilderness, the Israelites were supplied continually with water from a rock, and the Apostle Paul tells us “that spiritual Rock that followed them . . . was Christ” (I Corinthians 10:4).

To unbelievers He is “The stone which the builders rejected” (Matthew 21:42), “a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word” (I Peter 2:8).

“Therefore,” said Jesus, “whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock” (Matthew 7:25).

Again, the idea of God as our rock was nothing new to the disciples. However, in Matthew, chapter 16, Jesus reveals his true identity to his disciples in a remarkable way. He uses geography to illustrate that He is a god who is constant, faithful and enduring.
_______________

Caesarea Philippi was built around the time of Jesus’ birth by Herod Philip on top of rocky cliffs that lined the Banyas River, which is a tributary of the Jordan.

This place had a long and storied history of paganism.
Images of the pagan god, Pan, were carved into a rock face, which was hundreds of feet high, as a visible reminder of this mythological Greek god. In other places along the rock face, niches were carved out so that pagans could place their idols of wood, metal and stone “in the rock.”

To the Greeks, the mythological god, Pan, was the god of animals and forests. Students of mythology know that Greeks believed Pan could multiply into a swarm of Pans. In other words, he had the ability to reproduce himself in various forms, taking on different identities as he saw fit. The most popular images of Pan, however, were the images of him as half-human, half-goat. This image survives, in our day, in the upside down satanic pentagram, shaped like a goat’s head.

It’s important to realize that this conversation between Jesus and his disciples occurred shortly before he made his final journey to Jerusalem to be crucified. It’s equally important to understand that his journey to this place, Caesarea Philippi, was no accident.

Jesus was a Jew and, as such, he knew that the Law prohibited Him from visiting a pagan temple. Mosaic Law was very clear in this regard. Visiting such a place meant you were defiled. Yet, Jesus seems to have considered the consequences, and decided to bring His disciples to this place anyway. Our text reveals His reason.

Jesus brought His disciples to Caesarea Philippi to ask two questions He could have asked them anywhere.

A."Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

Against the backdrop of pagan gods etched in stone, and idols embedded in the cliff walls, Jesus asks the question, “Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?”

• What do people think of me?
• Who do they say I am?
• Do they realize my true identity?

The question is a leading question. It’s a loaded question.

Surely Jesus knew what people were saying! He had to be aware of their assumptions and theories. It’s obvious that he wanted the disciples to verbalize all of those theories. And their answers came fast and furious. Others are saying you’re…

• John the Baptist.
• Elijah.
• Jeremiah.
• Maybe even one of the other prophets.

These answers revealed confusion. They showed that people were viewing Him as some reincarnation of a dead prophet. These opinions proved that people were viewing Jesus through pagan lens, and with fleshly understanding. After all, if Pan could multiply into different forms, couldn’t Jesus simply be another form of one of the prophets?

Jesus asked this question to show just how faulty human reasoning is. In short, he asked it to show that their assumptions were as false as the images of the gods which lined the rock facing. He asked the question so that he could respond by comparing things which were dead, and would never live again to the God who would die – yet live again. In this way He is the incomparable Living God

The first question was easy. It required no personal commitment. There was no risk involved in answering it. But the next question is dangerous.

[Charnock]

B.“But who do you say that I am?”

THIS question is personal.

Who do you say that I am? What do you think of me?

Understand, these men had been following Jesus for three years. They had shared many meals with Him, listened to Him teach, and watched Him perform miracle after miracle. And now it is time for a quiz, of sorts.

“Who do you say that I am?”

The Bible does not record what anybody else said, but Peter responds with conviction and clarity, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God."

Against the backdrop of pagan gods drawn in stone, Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. This declaration was made in direct opposition to the dead gods enshrined in the Petra.

a. Peter recognized, through the unction of the Holy Spirit, that…

• Jesus is not a reincarnation of someone else’s flesh, He is wholly individual. He is the One True God manifested once, and for all time, to redeem mankind.

• Jesus is not a monstrous half-man, half-god being, He is the Christ, the hope of mankind. He is fully man, and fully God.

• Jesus is not “dead” like the inanimate objects and images of pagan gods. He is the living, breathing plan of God to rid the world of the panic (word derived from Pan) sin brings.

b. Peter called Him “Christ” which means “the anointed one” or “Messiah.”

• Peter recognized His origin.
• Peter recognized His mission.
• Peter recognized His identity.
And Jesus recognizes the voice of spiritual revelation, and declares "Blessed art thou, Simon Barona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Revealed it?

Revealed what?

The revelation of who Jesus is. He is the Christ come to seek and save that which is lost.

• This revelation comes from God.
• This revelation comes from spending time with THE WORD.

A personal revelation of the true identity of Jesus comes from God through His word and daily interaction with His spirit.

c. “Upon THIS rock I will build my church.”

Jesus used Caesarea Philippi to illustrate this one point.

The church will be built upon His revealed identity, and it will never be defeated. In fact, Hell itself cannot defeat the church.

d. “and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it.”

The word Hell, in this passage, is actually “Hades” which means the grave.

This is a direct reference to the future resurrection and rapture of the church. Jesus is saying that the grave will not hold my church, just like the grave will not hold me.

The reference to "the gates of Hell” is a powerful one.

Gates are defensive weapons, not offensive. They are not meant to make war, they are meant to keep something in, or out. In this case, the gates of Hell, or the grave, are used by Satan to keep the church in the ground.

But Jesus says, those gates are not powerful enough to hold my church in. My church is built upon a solid, everlasting rock that will never be eroded.

This church has:

• Staying power.
• Resurrection power.
• Everlasting life.

“O death where is thy sting, o grave where is thy victory.”

Simon Peter, after Jesus proved what he was saying by raising from the dead after three days, would stand at Pentecost and preach the GOSPEL of Jesus death, burial and resurrection.

• He preached it to give hope.
• He preached it to inspire devotion.
• He preached it to prove what he learned at Caesarea Philippi.

God is not dead, He’s alive! And he wants to give you that same resurrection power! We do not need memorials of Jesus etched in stone. No, He lives in us! Jesus is the Rock of Our Salvation!

[Charnock]

So, Lafon, your assertion is just plain fruity.

1. Jesus never promised an unbroken chain of succession.
2. Even if He had, the only church that would fit that bill is the believing church.
3. If I were to accept your premise, I would have to conclude that the present day Apostolic Church does not fit the criterion you propose, therefore it is a false church.

[Charnock]

If a person believes that Matthew 16 is predictive of an unbroken chain of succession, yet there is no evidence that their belief system existed at any time in history, they are left with two options. 1. Grasp at any evidences of even one component (as evidenced here) or 2. Change their belief system.

[Sean]

Guys, I have an interesting perspective of Matt. 16..check this out...

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Notice that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church is what we have been taught. But it looks like to me(as highlighted), that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the revelation(rock) that Peter had(that Jesus was the Christ). We saw the church fall into apostacy in the Dark Ages, but the revelation of who Jesus is has lived on into our day. Nobody can take away the revelation of our Jesus from us, but they can attack the congregation and disperse it.


Just a little food for thought....Its different, but worthy of mention...

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Sean

Guys, I have an interesting perspective of Matt. 16..check this out...

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Notice that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church is what we have been taught. But it looks like to me(as highlighted), that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the revelation(rock) that Peter had(that Jesus was the Christ). We saw the church fall into apostacy in the Dark Ages, but the revelation of who Jesus is has lived on into our day. Nobody can take away the revelation of our Jesus from us, but they can attack the congregation and disperse it.

Just a little food for thought....Its different, but worthy of mention...

The true church has always known who Jesus is, even those hellbound trinitarians (TIC) in whose honor this thread is named, have always vehemently defended the deity of Jesus Christ. You interpretation doesn't really do any favors for oneness.

[Sean]

It does indeed Jason, Im glad you see my analogy though. The very basis of the oneness doctrine is the statement..."thou art the Christ(messiah). the Son of the Living God.(human being son). This statement is exactly how I teach oneness. I teach that Jesus was totally and completely human, and A begotten(human) son of a divine God.

Without this foundational understanding, oneness has no solid footing.