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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #71  
Old 03-15-2016, 07:07 PM
phareztamar phareztamar is offline
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

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Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
Is that all you're going to do: shout from the bleachers:
"KILL THE UMPIRE!"?
Yep. The only thing missing from your posts is "yes or no".
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  #72  
Old 03-15-2016, 07:56 PM
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

How can a person be born of God and yet NEVER have been known by the Lord?
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  #73  
Old 03-15-2016, 09:05 PM
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

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Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
Beloved, we are not even on the same page!

You re saying that those whom the Lord did not know are part of the
Church: I say no, but they rejected to submit themselves to the Ministry.
You are not reading my point, though. I already stated KNOW does not necessarily mean awareness.

Peter said born again believers can be barren if they do not add to their faith. 1 Peter 1. What are your thoughts on that?
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  #74  
Old 03-15-2016, 09:06 PM
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
How can a person be born of God and yet NEVER have been known by the Lord?
It depend upon what KNOW means.
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  #75  
Old 03-15-2016, 11:22 PM
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It depend upon what KNOW means.
Obviously it does not mean mere awareness, for everyone is "known" by the Lord in that sense.

So it must mean a relationship, as when God said of Israel "you alone of all the families of the earth have I known."

Which means "never known" must mean "never was in covenant with." Ergo, those never known are those who never entered into covenant with the Lord.
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  #76  
Old 03-16-2016, 06:58 AM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

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It depend upon what KNOW means.
You're pulling a Bill Clinton on us.
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  #77  
Old 03-16-2016, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

Obviously it does not mean mere awareness, for everyone is "known" by the Lord in that sense.

So it must mean a relationship, as when God said of Israel "you alone of all the families of the earth have I known."

Which means "never known" must mean "never was in covenant with." Ergo, those never known are those who never entered into covenant with the Lord.
How do you know it soaks of covenant? what if it's love like Adam knew Eve? Again many believers are barren.
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  #78  
Old 03-16-2016, 05:58 PM
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

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How do you know it soaks of covenant? what if it's love like Adam knew Eve? Again many believers are barren.
Let's say it means love. So then Jesus never loved them. NEVER.

Whatever it is, it is something that NEVER ONCE existed in relation to the workers of iniquity. Which does exist in relation to those who do the will of the Father.

I know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Ergo, they NEVER WERE his sheep. NEVER.
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  #79  
Old 03-16-2016, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

Let's say it means love. So then Jesus never loved them. NEVER.

Whatever it is, it is something that NEVER ONCE existed in relation to the workers of iniquity. Which does exist in relation to those who do the will of the Father.

I know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Ergo, they NEVER WERE his sheep. NEVER.
I already said it's intimacy to bear fruit and there are believers who are unfruitful. Why did Peter say believers must add to their faith or else they'll be barren?

I keep repeating this and no one addresses it. Adam loved Eve before he knew her.
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  #80  
Old 03-16-2016, 10:39 PM
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Re: Missing What Jesus Said About Crying "Lord, Lo

It makes sense to me that Jesus is speaking on the final judgment.

Some will come to Him proclaiming "Lord, Lord", as if happy to see Him, ready to make their boast at all they accomplished.

We've been debating whether or not this refers to those who were filled with God's Spirit (and even immersed in the name of Jesus), but who didn't continue in the faith, and became barren and unfruitful. They thought their works and gifts of the Spirit would somehow impress the Lord.

Or, we've been debating that in no way could any of these people be saved, for then they should have been known by the Lord, thus the use of the word "never" proves these were those who only had a part of the Gospel, and were never fully accepted in the beloved.

But in keeping with the idea that here Jesus is speaking on the final judgment, let me toss this into the mix:

Let us suppose that the people Jesus speaks of here in Matthew 7:23 really are or were Spirit-filled, immersed in Jesus name Oneness Apostolics, but who then, in whatever way, embraced, for the sake of discussion, a damnable heresy, or some other soul-destroying situation arose in their heart, and THIS IS KEY, God sent them a strong delusion and gave them up to a reprobate mind.

This seems to make sense in that the accusation against them is that they are people who habitually practice lawlessness. They just wouldn't get their flesh into submission to God, and so, never tried to reach perfection, and so, failed to live a sinless life by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

In this way, once given up and reprobate, their covenant with God through Christ is effectively annulled (like a marriage). And just as God can forget sin, can it not be said that He can forget those He gave up as reprobate, due to whatever caused the person to apostasize?

And once forgotten, the "never knew you" phrase makes perfect sense.

We have to remember this verse in Matthew is a quotation from a Messianic Psalm, namely Psalm 6.

We have to look at the context of that Psalm and what it means in order to understand how Jesus used it as a reference point to declare He never knew the workers of iniquity.

Psalm 6:8-10,

Quote:
8. Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the Lord hath heard the voice of my weeping.
9. The Lord hath heard my supplication; the Lord will receive my prayer.
10. Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.
Why is it said in Messianic prophecy that the workers of iniquity should depart from Jesus? Psalm 6:8 indicates it's because YHWH has heard the sound of His Son crying.

As High Priest, Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us. His Spirit makes groanings in us that cannot be uttered as it makes intercession for us.

When we cry out to God in this way, and the Spirit moves us in this way, and we begin to cry and weep, and moan, not able to speak, it's not merely us, it is also Jesus in us, through the Spirit, that is crying and weeping and moaning, trying to, through the Spirit, help us overcome our personal weaknesses.

But what if all that intercession comes to nought? What if the Spirit of Christ tried and tried and tried to no avail, because though we groaned with groanings that cannot be uttered, we never allowed that intercession to change us? We continued to go back to our body of sin, to live in lawlessness?

In this way, Jesus, through the Spirit, never got to receive the fruit and reward of His intercession. He never got to experience us as changed, transformed by the renewing of our minds, saints of the Most High. He never knew us as He ought to have known us, since His Spirit should have been able to do wonders in us, to make us great in the Kingdom of God, but we just wouldn't submit, no matter how kindly and gently the Spirit worked in our lives, and even used us to do great things (like prophesy, cast out demons, and etc.).

We are told plainly that we have been: "... given...all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3).

This means there is no excuse for not living right and in the divine power of the Holy Spirit.

So, if we carnally refuse the intercession (i.e. the weeping before YHWH as relayed in Psalm 6:8) of the Messiah through His Spirit, and don't embrace the divine power of God to live a Godly life, we stay barren and fruitless.

Two shall become one flesh. In marriage this happens not just in consummation, but also, and especially, in conception. DNA co-mingles, chromosomes are exchanged, and the offspring of the consummation makes one out of two.

The same with us and Jesus. We have to, by the Holy Spirit, become one with Him, and conceive, as it were, and so, be able to present to Him the fruit of our intimacy with Him.

But if we are barren and fruitless, meaning we have no real knowledge of Him, it's because we refused the level of intimacy and transformation His Spirit was trying, possibly for our entire life, to bring about. We denied the power of our High Priest's intercession, and so, we find ourselves being told to depart.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 03-16-2016 at 10:44 PM.
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