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View Poll Results: What are your freelings the son's pre-existence?
I think the son existed only in the plan of God before the incarnation. 14 41.18%
I don't thing the son existed at all before the incarnation. 5 14.71%
I think that the son existed in some manner with the Father before the incarnation. 11 32.35%
None of these explain my feelings. I will comment below. 4 11.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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  #71  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:17 PM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You agree with "the WORD was with God" and then you throw out the last part of the sentence...

Phil 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, Christ is EQUAL with God. He's not just some type of surbodinate.
The words he is using are in line with the word of God.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Last edited by Digging4Truth; 11-09-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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  #72  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:17 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You agree with "the WORD was with God" and then you throw out the last part of the sentence...

Phil 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, Christ is EQUAL with God. He's not just some type of surbodinate.
John 1v2 He was in the beginning with God.
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  #73  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:22 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
The words he is using are in line with the word of God.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
I'm not denying that the Word was with God. What I'm saying is that the scriptures also say that the Word was God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He is quoting only "the word was with God" and leaving out "the word was God"
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  #74  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:23 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

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Originally Posted by berkeley View Post
John 1v2 He was in the beginning with God.
Yes, the WORD was in the beginning with God. And the WORD was God himself.
That's what John 1:1 says.
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  #75  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:25 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.
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  #76  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:30 PM
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
I'm not denying that the Word was with God. What I'm saying is that the scriptures also say that the Word was God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He is quoting only "the word was with God" and leaving out "the word was God"
What are your thoughts on what the verses I quoted are saying?

They say "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
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  #77  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:26 PM
seekerman seekerman is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You agree with "the WORD was with God" and then you throw out the last part of the sentence...

Phil 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, Christ is EQUAL with God. He's not just some type of surbodinate.
Yes, Jesus IS some type of subordinate. He takes orders, so to speak, from His God and Father. He submits Himself to His God and Father, His God and Father does not submit Himself to His Son, Jesus the Christ.

The only reason Jesus the Christ is equal with God the Father is because He is recipient of that position from His God and Father. All that Jesus was/is comes directly from His God and Father. His anointing, His position, His power, ect. He is nothing within Himself, as He's said so many times.
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  #78  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:31 PM
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
But that verse does not mention the Son. It mentions "Christ" Jesus. And it mentions the "form" of God.
That's like saying "But the reporter did not mention Obamak he mentions President....so he must not be talking about Obama:"
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #79  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:32 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
Praxeas said "I think the Son pre-existed being human as God Himself" and you replied "Stated perfectly" along with others who agreed as well.

If the son pre-existed as God himself... was he God the son? How did he exist?
If the Son pre-existed as GOD HIMSELF....Then He was God Himself not God the Son...How did He exist? As God Himself...the answer was right infront of you
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #80  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:37 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
Thanks Brother Epley.

This is what I have always been taught and do still believe although, as I had mentioned, there are a few "head scratcher" verses out there that I find hard to reconcile with my beliefs sometimes.
If the Son is a Person then He is either the same Person as God and so then He personally has always existed as God OR He is someone OTHER than God and what you have is Unitarianism... 2 persons.

That is the issue. The Son is both a WHO and a WHAT...and as a WHO He has always existed AS God Himself not as one of three WHOs...not as a second Divine Himself...but as God Himself. Not as the Son or God the Son but as God HIMSELF the ONLY WHO and WHAT that there ever was that is God. That WHO and WHAT became the Son when HE was incarnate.

At that time God (WHO) added to HIMSELF (Person) the Human nature. At that time God (WHAT) was United with the Human nature, not mixed or confused but in unity.

God is a Person with a Divine nature who added to Himself a Human nature and when HE took up that human manner of being limiting Himself to the Human nature, He became the Son.
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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