Can a oneness believer make it to Heaven...

[Cindy]

I will tell you who is going to split hell wide open.......believer's of false doctrine. And Jesus is the ONE that will send them to the pit they came out of. He will not have to ask permission from His Father, or ask the Holy Ghost if He is in agreement. Because He is ONE.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by U376977

On the other hand---

Some Trinitarians are SO SO SO Trinity (we have at least two here in Charlotte) that they are two/three gods. When they worship the "Father" they think of him as another being --apart from Jesus.

Break it down, U37...

There are some here on this forum who seem to not realize (or not want to acknowledge?) that there are many churches like this.

I had one woman look at me and say she used to pray to the Father, and to Jesus, but recently she's come to realize the beauty in praying to the Holy Spirit also!!

Yet some AFF members seem to make a hobby out of of telling us how very little difference there is between what we believe and what Trinitarians believe. Whatever.

You'll never convince me of that. I've seen and heard too much with my own eyes and ears to ever believe that.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Kutless

with all due respect Brother Ron I guess I could have just left it as......


Can a oneness believer make it to Heaven from a trinitarian pew?

My opinion is that
yes, a oneness believer can make it to heaven from a trinitarian pew or from a oneness pew if he has Jesus living in his heart.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Break it down, U37...

There are some here on this forum who seem to not realize (or not want to acknowledge?) that there are many churches like this.


Yet some AFF members seem to make a hobby out of of telling us how very little difference there is between what we believe and what Trinitarians believe. Whatever.

amen.
I absolutely agree. I have had hundreds? of converstaions with trinitarians, used to be one, and have only had a couple (only one person comes to mind) of trinitarians state what was close to my beliefs in the one God, but even then they drew the line at baptism in Jesus name instead of the titles. So to emphasize how little difference there is between oneness and trinity seems to be complete ignorance to me.

Now do some "trinitarians" believe in the godhead similar to us, I believe so. I remember playing on a charismatic church softball team, and there was a member who when he prayed before games, used the term Father and Jesus interchangable, much as I would. But when the pastor prayed, there was a definite distinction. after a short discussion with the pastor once, I wrote a 9 page letter on oneness and and "echad" and "elohim". Despite a couple of short questions like "did you read my letter?" I never got any response.

On a similar note, Calvin Beisner, who writes all kind of things against oneness, lamented in one of his books (I think "Jesus Only Churches") that regretably there are a minority of "trinitarians" who unintentionally believe n the oneness of God, and do not realize it.
I would agree there are a minority, perhaps 15-40%, but the MAJORITY definetly leans towards tritheism.


I don't go so far as to say all trinitarians are lost, really I have a hard time saying that, and especially wouldn't say it for all of church history, but such statements as John 8:24 definetly let us know that it is not an issue to sweep under a rug and sing kumbaya.

[Jason B]

The author's (Calvin Beisner) willingness to excoriate Oneness Pentecostals for their doctrine of God is particularly surprising in light of views expressed in his book God in Three Persons:

"Monarchianism is represented today by the United ("Jesus Only") Pentecostals.... As the differences between modalism and pure trinitarianism are rather minute, it is not surprising that a great number of Christians in mainline denominations, including Roman Catholicism, hold a modalistic conception of the Trinity, at least unconsciously"(1)

(1) E. Calvin Beisner, God in Three Persons (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1984), 18.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Matt. For most on here doctrine mean everything. It means everything to me. However that is not all there is. I do agree with you about the next generations. If I drop a standard of some sort in my generation then the next generation will not have to drop that because they will have it to drop. Such as if I social drink(which I DO NOT do)I have dropped a standard. Chances are that my kids would not ever have to drop that standard themselves cause I dropped it for all of us.


Going to a trinitarian church is not the end of the world. Many of them are just like us, I mean me. IF I do my job as the leader of my family my kids will not have an issue with what is being preached. You know I went to FAC in Knoxville-they were and still are more conservative than many UPC churches. Growing under that teaching was good, but my mother and father taught me what they themselves believed based upon the Bible and not all of it matched the Bishop. They made me understand that we have to choose the life we live and not go on someones word, but search it for yourself. The taught me if I am questioning a belief then search it out and if that belief is right then I will end up where I started, but with the knowledge that I am on the right track. This is how we ought to be. But just going to a non OP church is not bad.

I disagree. IF doctrine means everything, then why do half the people here on AFF say that trinitarians are saved. Oneness doctrine is just an option on the car for many. Just as the Holy Ghost is.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I disagree. IF doctrine means everything, then why do half the people here on AFF say that trinitarians are saved. Oneness doctrine is just an option on the car for many. Just as the Holy Ghost is.

Amen!

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I disagree. IF doctrine means everything, then why do half the people here on AFF say that trinitarians are saved. Oneness doctrine is just an option on the car for many. Just as the Holy Ghost is.

One does not necessarily negate the other. Not all doctrine revolves around the oneness issue.

Many trinitarians don't even understand the actual trinitarian concept as I understand it. The understanding that most people have actually falls under the category of Tritheism. Trinitarians actually believe (or should to actually be trinitarians) that each of the 3 persons are fully God. Where they lose me is when they say that each entity has separate independent wills vs our idea of 3 manifestations. Trinitarian apologists admit that it doesn't make sense and that it is a "mystery", whereas we are often quick to oversimplify and not acknowledge all of the verses in the Bible that, at the very least, make it a point of discussion.

I think of trinitarians as basically one-steppers with a different (maybe distorted) perspective of the image of God. Which - is not a heaven or hell issue in my opinion. The trinity concept is that Jesus is 100% God, that the father is 100% God, and that the Holy Spirit is 100% God. What they can't reconcile is how that is possible with 3 independently willed entities.

If you are a three-stepper, then I can understand how you believe that Trinitarians won't achieve salvation - just like you don't believe one-steppers oneness people will either.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by DerrickS

If you are a three-stepper, then I can understand how you believe that Trinitarians won't achieve salvation - just like you don't believe one-steppers oneness people will either.

Orthodox Trinitarians do not believe that God has three wills. Three persons, yes, but only one divine will.

Three steppers do not believe one stepper Apostolics are lost because, supposedly, all one stepper Apostolics preach the absolute necessity of OBEYING Acts 2:38. Disobedience to Acts 2:38 is disobedience to a command of God. You are lost if you don't do the will of God and keep the commandments of the Lord.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Orthodox Trinitarians do not believe that God has three wills. Three persons, yes, but only one divine will.

... which begs the [rhetorical] question: if there is indeed no separation or individuality of wills , how then is there a separation or individuality of personhood?