"Beards are sin!" False doctrine?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There should be a resolution introduced at GC!!!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, you deny that the traditional church service is indeed a massive production that is the result of the hard work and dedication of a lot of people who desire to put on the best "service" to you and your family? You think it all just falls out of the sky with the music playing and choir clapping? No, it's a production. Don't be frustrated by this fact. Just accept it.

I don't deny that there are megachurches in which their service is a massive stage show. Everything is staged, from the lighting and fog, the pre-service and service videos, the opening song and on down to the exact moment the Pastor finishes his message. I visited a church, which is now a Hillsong church, years ago to see an old friend who was singing there. I noticed there were two electronic displays facing the stage - one was a clock with the current time, the other was a countdown for each part of the service. When my friend took the stage, I saw the countdown was set to 10 minutes. My friend was still singing the final chorus of the last song when the sound booth faded the music and mic out. Awkward. But that's how most megachurches roll. They're more concerned with time and stage everything down to the second so much that the spirit couldn't move if it wanted to.

I would argue that most Apostolic church services are not staged or manufactured. Sure, there are music rehearsals and teacher meetings, but it's not as you make it out to be.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well, I was thinking freely, sharing some thoughts (and they weren't even directed at you personally) and you got all bent out of shape telling me not to go to church. lol Dude, you're not really a "minister" are you? Empathize, relate, broaden perspective, associate, and connect. Then lead me home. You know the drill.

Gimme a break. Why all the hyperbole and drama? I didn't stop you from "freely sharing" your thoughts. I simply told you what likely a lot of people reading your posts were thinking. Certainly any Pastor and most saints would balk at the thought of you attending their church with the "free thoughts" you've shared on here. Protests, disruptions, division, strife. Seriously, who wants that?

(This is where you claim you've been playing devil's advocate or something the whole time and don't really mean you would do any of it.)

Originally Posted by Aquila

When did I say that I "dread going to church"? I did voice concern over unbiblical standards, which you vehemently defend. But, who needs biblical standards? Right?

You didn't say it outright, but your posts show you don't really want to go. And if you were honest, you'd admit you really don't want to go, but feel you have to do something.

Are there any non-UPC Oneness/Acts 2:38 churches in your area?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ndavid, you don't even know me, bro. I'll probably see some folks I know, catch up, enjoy a good sermon, and make some silly jokes about some of the things I saw happening in the background that I don't think anyone picked up on. My goodness, it's hilarious sometimes if you pay attention. This isn't a slam, or even an insult, silly things happen in the background of house church too. It's just that in a church service, it seems funnier. LOL

You're right, the only things I know are what you post online here. My comments are based on your posts. And honestly, I shouldn't think much of it, because the likelihood of you actually following through with your protest is very small.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I do understand what you're saying, and you're right. There is a biblical pattern to follow. But why do we deviate from the Bible on beards, but argue for the Bible when confronting a pastor who is abusing his authority? I mean, either the church is biblical or it isn't, right?

When I was growing up, my father told me many times: "What people do and say to you cannot affect your salvation, but what you do or say to others can." The point is you're responsible to follow biblical principles, regardless of whether others do or not. Because what you do can and will affect your salvation.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The statement in support of shouting down and protest is that when a pastor politicks from the pulpit, it's no longer a church service. And the building is irrelevant. You have a man using his position to preach his personal politics when his sacred obligation is to preach Jesus. And if the pastor is going to turn a church service into a "political rally", how do you address a "political rally" you disagree with? You protest. If the pastor can bring politicking into the church... why not those of us in the pews??? The pastor isn't a king. In fact, in most cases if it wasn't for the people in the pews supporting the man financially and through prayer and encouragement, he'd not have a building, pulpit, sound system, or anything. If he can take the sacred desk and turn it into a political bully pulpit... why not meet politics with politics? The only proper response in kind is a protest. If members standing up in protest, shouting down a pastor with opposition political statements sounds so horrible... imagine watching a pastor go down in flames as he degenerates into a political lap dog for either one of our political parties.

You can try to apply your liberal political reasoning to it, but it doesn't matter. What you're posting is unbiblical. You do realize that if people don't like what the Pastor is saying, they can (at any moment) leave or stop paying tithes and offerings. They're not being forced to stay there. The fact that they remain and continue to attend the church should be enough for you to know they agree with the message being taught or preached.

Here's something of which you may not be aware: the church building is not public property. Should you wake up stupid one morning and actually do what you're describing here -- the Pastor and church have the legal right (and obligation) to trespass you. If someone is deranged enough to stand up in the middle of a service and start yelling at the Pastor, the church and Pastor can't/shouldn't take the chance of the next time the person bringing a gun and shooting people. (Which you've posted you would understand if that happened.)

Originally Posted by Aquila

Imagine feeling like you're obligated to continue sitting there as he rants about how great some candidate is when you and your family strongly disagree.

Obligated? Were you kidnapped and held against your will? The legs you want to use to stand and protest -- can they not also be used to simply walk out? Again, why are you so hell bent on causing division and chaos in church?

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have a news flash. The church doesn't belong to the pastor. It belongs to Jesus. That's a fundamental problem I'm seeing in many churches. Pastors think they own the church body. It's Christ's body, and they are charged with spiritually nourishing it and caring for it. Not to preach their personal politics.

I have a news flash -- start your own church. Make it the most biblical church on the planet.

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's reasonable.

Absolutely. You're making it seem as though you have to go and that you're being forced to give or attend. You're not. This is still a free country, somewhat. If you don't like the music or preaching or the color of the tie the Pastor is wearing -- go somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Been there. Done that. It wasn't received the way it was intended. And the fallout essentially resulted in publically humiliating me over it. So, why bother? If the pastor thinks the church is now a political action committee... play politics from the pew. Protest.

Ah, now we're getting to the issue. You were "publicly humiliated" so now you want to stick it to the next Pastor. Where in the Bible is this "eye for an eye" you wish to do? You demand the Pastor be biblical in everything, what about you?

Originally Posted by Aquila

But you know what??? If pastors (left and right) could set their politics aside and actually focused on preaching Jesus... there wouldn't be any concern, now would there? And shouldn't Jesus be the focus, not the politics and divisions of this world???

Most do preach Jesus.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think you're misunderstanding my take on it. If the pastor turns a service into a political rally... it's now a political rally. And political rallies invite protest from dissenters. They want to play politics in the pulpit like bullies until someone argues that perhaps politics should be played from the pews. Then they start wimping out and saying, "B-b-b but what about approaching me privately about it like the B-B-B Bible says?" Stop hiding behind the book. If you want church to be political, then man up and prepare for politics. Or... we can keep the church focused on Jesus. Which is what I so desire to see. Which is the entire purpose for the notion. But that is entirely overlooked and mischaracterized. Sad, isn't it?

I'm not "misunderstanding" anything. You've made it very clear.

Yes, it's sad that instead of thinking Spiritually, you're thinking carnally using your liberal political beliefs.

Originally Posted by Aquila

But, I'm the bad guy, remember? Who am I to want to see politics set aside so that we can focus on the Lord in the one place in this nation where we should have unity of spirit?

HA! That's hilarious. You talking about "unity of spirit" in this paragraph when just sentences earlier you were talking about starting protests, division and chaos.

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is a production. And a lot of people put a lot of work into it. It should be recognized as such. Why lie?

It's not a staged production as you're making it out to be.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've attended three different churches in my time. For about the past 8 to 9 years, I've been in house churches.

Only three? And yet you post as though you've attended many more.

Originally Posted by Aquila

And that is because you come out of the gate swinging, making personal accusations, blah, blah, blah. That's an indicator that one needs to calm down.

No, that's an indicator that I'm finished with your junk. I'm perfectly calm. What I've posted here to you I would say face to face in a coffee house, without causing any scene or raising my voice.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I might have light heartedly chided churches on some things. I might have remarked comparing some pastors to Sith lords in jest. But I never said anything personal about YOU. When you come out of the gate attacking someone personally over some very general statements that weren't even directed at you... you need to calm down.

Why are you saying you "may have." There's no "may have" about it. You "have" attacked churches, complaining about everything you could possibly imagine. And you "did" compare Pastors to Sith Lords.

Remember what you posted above: "If you want church to be political, then man up," well, if you want to attack churches and Pastors then man up and be prepared for the response.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I don't deny that there are megachurches in which their service is a massive stage show. Everything is staged, from the lighting and fog, the pre-service and service videos, the opening song and on down to the exact moment the Pastor finishes his message. I visited a church, which is now a Hillsong church, years ago to see an old friend who was singing there. I noticed there were two electronic displays facing the stage - one was a clock with the current time, the other was a countdown for each part of the service. When my friend took the stage, I saw the countdown was set to 10 minutes. My friend was still singing the final chorus of the last song when the sound booth faded the music and mic out. Awkward. But that's how most megachurches roll. They're more concerned with time and stage everything down to the second so much that the spirit couldn't move if it wanted to.

That's an excellent example of a tightly staged church production. And that is something I really have a deep dislike for.

I would argue that most Apostolic church services are not staged or manufactured. Sure, there are music rehearsals and teacher meetings, but it's not as you make it out to be.

You're right, most smaller churches are not as staged as the mega church example you gave. When I say that they are a production, a show, etc., what I'm typically saying is that there is a program. There is a program to the music played and songs sung as rehearsed. There is typically the traditional two to three songs, an offering, and some announcements. Then the preacher is welcomed, or approaches the mic, and opens a "sermon" he's prepared complete with a text, a central point, and several supplemental points, and perhaps even an analogy or two. Then the music team will approach the platform and begin playing more emotional chords as he closes. Some preachers to the fake tear thing. Some don't. Then there is an altar call or a general time of prayer. Final song, final remarks, and dismissal.

It's a production. And it is the generally the same pattern, with minor deviations, from week to week. And of course, as we know being Apostolic, sometimes God shows up and interrupts the program.

In house churching, we don't know what is going to happen when we gather. No clue. We only know what food we brought to contribute. We don't know what others brought. We don't know if anyone brought a song (so we typically try to pray about one to bring ourselves, just in case). We don't know if the brothers or sisters with guitars will be there, or if they've had to work. And if they do show, we don't know for certain if they will bring their guitar. We pray about what God has done and shown us this past week that we can share that would be of value to the house church. We don't know what the elder's text or thought will be (unless we're reading through an entire book together). We arrive and eat together, breaking bread, passing the cup. Then we sing (music or not). Then the elder might have a passage to share or he might say, "The Lord didn't give me anything to share this week. Who might have something the Lord would like them to share with the group." Sometimes it's a passage shared, sometimes it's just a verse. Some folks have brought poems or songs they've written to share. Once the opening texts are shared, the one sharing those things expounds on how it affected their lives and understanding. Then the elder might build on their thought, or lovingly correct something that was off. Then the elder asks if anyone else has anything to add or consider on what was shared. Understandings of the text are shared, experiences on that topic or subject are shared. There is back and forth conversation and exchange. Sometimes the older folks lay out some bombshells, let me tell you. Often God moves as the Spirit leads the discussion. It's almost like watching everything unfold. We suddenly realize that the discussion is lining up with a song that a sister sung in the beginning, and the thoughts of a poem shared before discussion. Everything begins to fall into place and people begin realizing that Jesus is ministering to all of us through all of us. Sometimes the elders sit weeping in joy as they watch the Holy Spirit take over and the body begins ministering to itself. There are occasionally open confessions and weeping over sin. Forgiveness and grace offered as one repents. We've seen spouses confess to spouses before the group and emotions run very high... as we pray and minister healing to them as a body. Differences are mended, and forgiveness overflows. We've seen rebuke, and admonishment for counsel. We've all had our thoughts corrected or "pruned" by the elders to bring them into alignment to what is generally taught by the body. There's just telling how the gathering will end. And time flies as discussion flows. Sometimes we gather and the elder explains that we're not eating together that night. It's really not programmed much at all. It's like a family gathering. Only this is a spiritual family.

It's often said in house churching that a program is what you need when you don't know how to listen to Jesus.

Gimme a break. Why all the hyperbole and drama? I didn't stop you from "freely sharing" your thoughts. I simply told you what likely a lot of people reading your posts were thinking. Certainly any Pastor and most saints would balk at the thought of you attending their church with the "free thoughts" you've shared on here. Protests, disruptions, division, strife. Seriously, who wants that?

Bro., I was only talking about disruption or protest if the pastor politics from the pulpit. And that is of course not something that would be warranted over a mere political remark or short statement. I'm talking about actual "politicking" from the pulpit. Not just protest at anything like some hair-brained fanatic. And the only one bringing strife would be the pastor who abuses the sacred desk to prop up his candidate as though it is the will of God.

You didn't say it outright, but your posts show you don't really want to go. And if you were honest, you'd admit you really don't want to go, but feel you have to do something.

I would much prefer an Apostolic house church. But there are none that I'm aware of in my area.

Are there any non-UPC Oneness/Acts 2:38 churches in your area?

Yeah, but first, their all institutional. And that does turn me off to a degree. However, if I had to go to a local church, I'd probably choose a UPCI church. The non-UPCI churches around here are often way too worldly for my taste. But, I might visit a couple just to see the churches for myself.

You're right, the only things I know are what you post online here. My comments are based on your posts. And honestly, I shouldn't think much of it, because the likelihood of you actually following through with your protest is very small.

EXACTLY! LOL

You're right. The chances of me actually feeling the need to protest or disrupt a service is very small. But if a pastor goes overboard propping up some politician, be they liberal or conservative, I'm probably going to voice my disappointment. Even if it is just standing up, telling the pastor he should be preaching Jesus, and then walking out.

Now, if the politician actually showed up to church, I'm torn. I don't want to hear from a politician in church. However, as a token of respect for those who serve or served in public office, I can see giving them a few moments to speak. So, I'm torn on this one.

When I was growing up, my father told me many times: "What people do and say to you cannot affect your salvation, but what you do or say to others can." The point is you're responsible to follow biblical principles, regardless of whether others do or not. Because what you do can and will affect your salvation.

Frankly, I don't see the entire "Congregationalist" model of church that we inherited from the Calvinists as being very "biblical". Nor the single office of pastor in a church. Nor the sermonizing. Nor the sound systems, choirs, and steeples. None of those things were around in the NT church of Acts. I don't think it's "biblical" if a pastor politics for a candidate from the pulpit. I mean, could you see Paul digressing into a political rant explaining as to why the church should support Nero over Caligula? lol The way I see it, the pastor is out of order. The service is now a political rally.

You can try to apply your liberal political reasoning to it, but it doesn't matter. What you're posting is unbiblical. You do realize that if people don't like what the Pastor is saying, they can (at any moment) leave or stop paying tithes and offerings. They're not being forced to stay there. The fact that they remain and continue to attend the church should be enough for you to know they agree with the message being taught or preached.

Liberal? I'd support taking a stand against a pastor who politics for any candidate, regardless of philosophy or party. I think the right word for what I'm advocating is, "radical".

Here's something of which you may not be aware: the church building is not public property. Should you wake up stupid one morning and actually do what you're describing here -- the Pastor and church have the legal right (and obligation) to trespass you. If someone is deranged enough to stand up in the middle of a service and start yelling at the Pastor, the church and Pastor can't/shouldn't take the chance of the next time the person bringing a gun and shooting people. (Which you've posted you would understand if that happened.)

I think the person would be removed in most churches. I also think that things are getting so heated in the political debates of our nation, it is becoming more and more likely that some wacko will do the unthinkable during a church service that waxes political. That's another reason why I strongly believe that preachers preach Jesus, not their politics.

TO BE CONTINUED....

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

Obligated? Were you kidnapped and held against your will? The legs you want to use to stand and protest -- can they not also be used to simply walk out? Again, why are you so hell bent on causing division and chaos in church?

I guess my experience in church is different from yours. If you attended, we were expected to stay seated and take whatever the pastor preached. If you dare remove yourself, temporarily or leave the building, you might not be in fellowship when you return.

I have a news flash -- start your own church. Make it the most biblical church on the planet.

I have no interest in starting any kind of church or ministry. Been there, done that too.

Absolutely. You're making it seem as though you have to go and that you're being forced to give or attend. You're not. This is still a free country, somewhat. If you don't like the music or preaching or the color of the tie the Pastor is wearing -- go somewhere else.

Well, when I was attending church back in the day, you had to be there when the doors were open, you were expected to give and tithe, or you weren't considered a member. It was very strict. Michael is familiar with the church I grew up in. Ultra-Con is the term most would use for it. You had to have the pastor's permission to go on vacation, buy a car, or even purchase an internet package. And when you did, you have to have B-SafeOnline installed with the Sr. Pastor, Pastor, and C50 (or was it C100?, can't remember) set up to receive emails on your internet activity.

Ah, now we're getting to the issue. You were "publicly humiliated" so now you want to stick it to the next Pastor. Where in the Bible is this "eye for an eye" you wish to do? You demand the Pastor be biblical in everything, what about you?

It's not so much that I want to stick it to anyone. I've just learned that if you have a serious issue, talking it out is never the way to go. The pastors I've known don't know how to do that. It's their way or the highway. And even after you have talked something out with them, and come to an agreement, all agreements are subject to change without notice. For example, I had to work and couldn't make required prayer meetings. I talked to my pastor about it and he released me from having to attend. But guess what... two months later his wife confronted my wife about us not being in prayer. So, I called for a conference with the pastor and his wife. When we had our meeting with him and his wife, I mentioned how the pastor and I discussed the issue and it was resolved that we weren't expected to attend. He lied through his teeth. He said, "I don't remember any such conversation." I was floored. Thank God there were several brothers sitting in the office with us. I called each of them on cell phone as I sat there and asked them about the conversation, and they ALL remembered the conversation. Right there on speaker phone I watched the pastor grow pale as after just two calls each brother remembered the conversation. I had maybe two more calls to go and he stopped me. He said, "I don't recall any such conversation. And even if we did have that conversation, I've changed my mind. My wife is right. Either attend 6am prayer or perhaps you can't serve on the minister's team." It was a kangaroo court. LOL There wasn't much I could do. When men have selective memories, total power, and they realize you aren't going to lick their boots, or kiss their papal ring... you're done. lol

Most do preach Jesus.

Amen. And I think we are both thankful for that, are we not??? We agree here. We don't have to disagree on everything.

I'm not "misunderstanding" anything. You've made it very clear.

Yes, it's sad that instead of thinking Spiritually, you're thinking carnally using your liberal political beliefs.

Why are you so fixated on this being a liberal idea? It isn't about liberal or conservative. It's about worldly politics in the pulpit. Solid conservatives have protested and disrupted many religious and political abuses down through history.

HA! That's hilarious. You talking about "unity of spirit" in this paragraph when just sentences earlier you were talking about starting protests, division and chaos.

In context, unit of spirit should come through our focus on Christ Jesus. No matter what our politics, Christ Jesus and the Gospel are the very things that we should be able to be united upon. During the election season, it's hard to escape the chaos, fake news, confusion, false accusations, conspiracy theories, debates, etc... church should be the one place we can go to that is not of this world and is not all caught up in the frenzy. When we come into fellowship, in a church building or a house church, we should be able to escape the chaos of this world and bring our focus on Christ Jesus. Is that too much to expect? Has the church really degenerated to the point that pastors have no tact, and should be expected to routinely abuse their pulpits to advance their candidates and politics? If so, the church is far far more compromised with this world than I thought.

It's not a staged production as you're making it out to be.

I explained this above.

Only three? And yet you post as though you've attended many more.

I've "attended' three as a member. I've actually been to a number of churches. I was born again over 29 years ago.

No, that's an indicator that I'm finished with your junk. I'm perfectly calm. What I've posted here to you I would say face to face in a coffee house, without causing any scene or raising my voice.

Fair enough. But if we were face to face, you'd probably have laughed at my initial remarks of protest in the church, and I would have laughed with you and made a remark like, "Yeah, probably not a good idea, huh?" And you would have said, "No sir. You'd just get thrown out." And I might have said, "I just don't want to hear about a man's politics. Give me Jesus, man." But you kinda took everything I said to the extreme. And as I was forced to has out my reasoning, there was never a moment in which we just kinda looked at it and understood one another. Instead, I'm just batting accusation after accusation. But that's cool. I can take it. lol

Why are you saying you "may have." There's no "may have" about it. You "have" attacked churches, complaining about everything you could possibly imagine. And you "did" compare Pastors to Sith Lords.

Oh, please. I've only voiced my thoughts on various things that I don't really relish about the church from my perspective of having been in house churches. It's like being a home schooled kid and suddenly finding yourself having to attend a public school again. Instead of getting your panties in a bunch over it, maybe ask me deeper questions, or perhaps give a word of encouragement, Jeesh. You could have said, "Yeah, coming from house churches, I can see where it all might be a bit strange or off putting to you. But give it a chance bro. I'm sure you'll find a decent church." But instead, just more accusatory attacks. C'mon man, try to look at things from my perspective here. It's not like I'm coming from a church across town and whining over the carpet. I'm having to embrace attending a traditional church that from everything I remember, they've never had the same level of intimacy, body ministry, or freedom I've experienced in house church. They are more like social clubs. A house church is like family.

Remember what you posted above: "If you want church to be political, then man up," well, if you want to attack churches and Pastors then man up and be prepared for the response.

That's fair. I guess I just expected you to be more reasonable. lol

[Aquila]

Ndavid,

I kinda covered the differences in church leadership and experience between house church and traditional churches in this post. I'd like to know your thoughts.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...1&postcount=16

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's an excellent example of a tightly staged church production. And that is something I really have a deep dislike for.

I do, too.

Most of the churches I've attended have a congregation of under 125. The last and current churches were/are around 80 in attendance. I'm not fond of the large churches where you can be lost in the congregation.

Originally Posted by Aquila

It's often said in house churching that a program is what you need when you don't know how to listen to Jesus.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I do, too.

Most of the churches I've attended have a congregation of under 125. The last and current churches were/are around 80 in attendance. I'm not fond of the large churches where you can be lost in the congregation.

We certainly have this in common. The larger a church gets, the more I typically take issue with it.

When it comes to house churching, most people know about the simple church desire to meet in a house or smaller, more intimate, venue for participative study and discussion. What many don't know is that a number of house church networks do have "church buildings". Yes, house church networks often have church buildings! LOL Ironic isn't it??? LOL

What differs is focus.

When house church networks own larger buildings it affords them the opportunity to have larger gatherings of the entire network. And most would assume it is just a traditional church by just looking at the outside of the building. It differs from traditional churching in that in the traditional church, the teaching agenda, church discipline, baptisms, appointment of elders, etc. takes place within the confines of the larger gathering, with the Sr. Pastor calling the shots. The care groups, cell groups, or Bible studies (or whatever we wish to call the smaller groups) are considered to be supplemental and largely optional. Many traditional churches don't even have small groups. Growth in the traditional church is measured in multiplying dedicated attendees in the larger gathering. The leadership in the traditional church is centralized, with the pastor typically having total control.

In house churching, the focus is often flipped. It is the small group gathering that is paramount. Each is largely autonomous. Each appoints their own elders, performs their own baptisms, has their own teaching agenda, has their own financial plan, and each carries out their own methods of church discipline in accordance to Scripture. Any gathering in the larger venue is more like a conference, be it weekly, monthly, or quarterly. It is the larger gathering that is considered "supplemental" and many house church networks don't even have buildings or permanent larger venue of brick and mortar. Growth in the organic church is measured by multiplying house churches as house churches within the network become too big to gather in their smaller venue. And so the house church network grows by multiplying house churches and elders to manage those house churches. And so, with this model, leadership is decentralized, with each house church maintaining its own unique identity and leadership. And overall government of the network is done through a collegiate style of leadership involving the elders of the house churches. Often speakers and pastoral leadership of the larger gathering is based on rotation. Sometimes there is a "Sr. Pastor" who leads the elders and leads the larger gathering and wider agenda of the network.

I think it is sad that the term "house churching" has become the term most widely used for this method of doing church. This gives the impression that house churches ONLY gather in homes. More accurate terms would include "organic church", "simple church", or "cell church". Personally, I like the term "organic church".

Now, you had mentioned that you too are not fond of larger churches where one can be lost in the crowd. In organic church, we put emphasis on what we believe to be the order of church service as outlined by Paul in I Corinthians 14. It reads:

I Corinthians 14:26-38 (ESV)
26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

In this passage Paul illustrates that their gatherings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

- Anyone is free to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation to share at the gathering. However, there must be order.
- There are to only be two or at most three utterances in tongues coupled with interpretation. If there is no interpreter, the one feeling the utterance should remain silent and pray to God about its meaning so that it might be shared with the group in a manner that can be understood.
- Two or three anointed teachers (NT prophets) are to speak and guide the meeting.
- If any saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Essentially meetings are to be discussion based with all able to participate.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers (NT prophets) guiding the group.
- Women are to remain in submission. Most house church elders are more liberal with allowing women to speak and participate. However, women should not lead the meeting and remain in subjection.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of gathering is a command from the Lord.

You mentioned that most churches you've attended have under 125 in attendance. To the organic church leader the concern becomes - At what point does a gathering get too large to allow the full participation and discussion Paul describes in this passage???

The conviction of organic church leadership is that if our "form of church" will not allow for the kind of meetings Paul lays out before us... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished the early church to meet. It doesn't matter if it is in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present in the primary gatherings. This would mean that the primary gatherings would have to be much smaller. They are to be elder guided and interactive in nature. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the "body ministry" Paul admonishes us to have. Most completely ignore that Paul states that this order of gathering is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37). This becomes very troubling for a believer who believes in organic church if a larger church doesn't facilitate this command of the Lord through having smaller gatherings.

I Corinthians 14:37-38 (ESV)
37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Here we have a clear and plain commandment regarding how our regular and primary gatherings should be. However, it is treated by most today as though it is merely an option. I do respect how many (but not all) traditional churches provide for small group ministries wherein this kind of body life can be experienced in care groups and such. However, these small groups are typically regarded as being less significant and subordinate to the larger gatherings held in their church buildings. In fact, this should be reversed. Early Christians primarily met in homes and smaller venues. It was the larger gatherings were typically for a specific purpose and were supplemental in nature.

[Truthseeker]

It shouldn't be made so complex. Want to shave then shave, want to grow a beard then grow one. Real simple.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

It shouldn't be made so complex. Want to shave then shave, want to grow a beard then grow one. Real simple.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We certainly have this in common. The larger a church gets, the more I typically take issue with it.

When it comes to house churching, most people know about the simple church desire to meet in a house or smaller, more intimate, venue for participative study and discussion. What many don't know is that a number of house church networks do have "church buildings". Yes, house church networks often have church buildings! LOL Ironic isn't it??? LOL

What differs is focus.

When house church networks own larger buildings it affords them the opportunity to have larger gatherings of the entire network. And most would assume it is just a traditional church by just looking at the outside of the building. It differs from traditional churching in that in the traditional church, the teaching agenda, church discipline, baptisms, appointment of elders, etc. takes place within the confines of the larger gathering, with the Sr. Pastor calling the shots. The care groups, cell groups, or Bible studies (or whatever we wish to call the smaller groups) are considered to be supplemental and largely optional. Many traditional churches don't even have small groups. Growth in the traditional church is measured in multiplying dedicated attendees in the larger gathering. The leadership in the traditional church is centralized, with the pastor typically having total control.

In house churching, the focus is often flipped. It is the small group gathering that is paramount. Each is largely autonomous. Each appoints their own elders, performs their own baptisms, has their own teaching agenda, has their own financial plan, and each carries out their own methods of church discipline in accordance to Scripture. Any gathering in the larger venue is more like a conference, be it weekly, monthly, or quarterly. It is the larger gathering that is considered "supplemental" and many house church networks don't even have buildings or permanent larger venue of brick and mortar. Growth in the organic church is measured by multiplying house churches as house churches within the network become too big to gather in their smaller venue. And so the house church network grows by multiplying house churches and elders to manage those house churches. And so, with this model, leadership is decentralized, with each house church maintaining its own unique identity and leadership. And overall government of the network is done through a collegiate style of leadership involving the elders of the house churches. Often speakers and pastoral leadership of the larger gathering is based on rotation. Sometimes there is a "Sr. Pastor" who leads the elders and leads the larger gathering and wider agenda of the network.

I think it is sad that the term "house churching" has become the term most widely used for this method of doing church. This gives the impression that house churches ONLY gather in homes. More accurate terms would include "organic church", "simple church", or "cell church". Personally, I like the term "organic church".

Now, you had mentioned that you too are not fond of larger churches where one can be lost in the crowd. In organic church, we put emphasis on what we believe to be the order of church service as outlined by Paul in I Corinthians 14. It reads:

I Corinthians 14:26-38 (ESV)
26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

In this passage Paul illustrates that their gatherings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

- Anyone is free to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation to share at the gathering. However, there must be order.
- There are to only be two or at most three utterances in tongues coupled with interpretation. If there is no interpreter, the one feeling the utterance should remain silent and pray to God about its meaning so that it might be shared with the group in a manner that can be understood.
- Two or three anointed teachers (NT prophets) are to speak and guide the meeting.
- If any saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Essentially meetings are to be discussion based with all able to participate.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers (NT prophets) guiding the group.
- Women are to remain in submission. Most house church elders are more liberal with allowing women to speak and participate. However, women should not lead the meeting and remain in subjection.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of gathering is a command from the Lord.

You mentioned that most churches you've attended have under 125 in attendance. To the organic church leader the concern becomes - At what point does a gathering get too large to allow the full participation and discussion Paul describes in this passage???

The conviction of organic church leadership is that if our "form of church" will not allow for the kind of meetings Paul lays out before us... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished the early church to meet. It doesn't matter if it is in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present in the primary gatherings. This would mean that the primary gatherings would have to be much smaller. They are to be elder guided and interactive in nature. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the "body ministry" Paul admonishes us to have. Most completely ignore that Paul states that this order of gathering is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37). This becomes very troubling for a believer who believes in organic church if a larger church doesn't facilitate this command of the Lord through having smaller gatherings.

I Corinthians 14:37-38 (ESV)
37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Here we have a clear and plain commandment regarding how our regular and primary gatherings should be. However, it is treated by most today as though it is merely an option. I do respect how many (but not all) traditional churches provide for small group ministries wherein this kind of body life can be experienced in care groups and such. However, these small groups are typically regarded as being less significant and subordinate to the larger gatherings held in their church buildings. In fact, this should be reversed. Early Christians primarily met in homes and smaller venues. It was the larger gatherings were typically for a specific purpose and were supplemental in nature.

Aquila, I love this. It makes sense from a perspectice of compartmentalization as well.

Think of a ship that has sealing bulkheads in case of a flood that seals off an area in case of a breach of the hull.

The smaller the area the flood can be contained in, the better for the ship

The "cell church" allows for focused attention that can address issues a larger group cannot.

In the case of things slipping in, a smaller group setting is much more prepared to seal the breach and deal with what has intruded than a large centralized entity.

And for the nerd reference....think Hydra lol!

If the enemy wanted to take out a centralized church it's easier to destroy something with few heads....but a entity with MANY leaders and independent cells...much more difficult to destroy....cut off one head two others grow into place...

https://media.giphy.com/media/7RdHcI0SE2gp2/200.gif

If the "world" is indeed the great threat that is preached and we want to be separate and protect against it's invasion and influence , it's much easier to defend and maintain the decentralized church and it's also a better structure for growing and maturing believers.