You'd Be Proud

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by shazeep

no, they are not intrinsically good, and i hope i would instill in my kids the desire to abstain from these, but i don't see how that can be extended to "drinking beer is bad." 23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. (yikes, what hideous translation is that lol; fix 'frequent illnesses' in your mind, must be NIV, sorry) Where did we get this "call something wrong," anyway? That is up to you to judge for yourself, isn't it? Do you have support for this "call something wrong?" other than generally speaking? Because let's admit, we are talking about pointing a finger at someone, and judging them.

^

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If you see a pastor or a leader in the church walking out of a Qmart with a 12pack of natural ice what goes through your mind? Sadly it probably doesn't matter much to many.

.

Originally Posted by shazeep

i wonder if Scripture doesn't allow that culture actually does determine right and wrong, at least to an extent.
as usual, your posts are full of wisdom, GS. It would not matter to me, on the 12 pack, but that does not deny that a pastor should avoid even the appearance of offense, to a weaker brother. But what offends a Christian deserves a hearing here, too, and frankly, i'm not sure where the line is. i think wine is wine in Scripture, and grape juice is new wine, but i might be mistaken there. i do know that the Israelites were instructed to buy whatever they wanted for a certain feast, once a year, i guess, including liquor if that was what they wanted, but then that is a special case.

@ "Sadly," though, i have a problem, if i didn't before. This indicates judgement to me, misplaced. If i saw the guy drunk in public, i might change pastors, but still would not judge him in this way; or at least i would feel guilty for doing so. But you suggest here that i am not judging right because i saw a 12 pack? And while i understand why, this strikes me as hypocrisy wadr. His brother is visiting and asked him to pick up a 12 pack, maybe.
i mean, the lesson seems to extend to me checking if his hair is touching his collar, and having to care about that, and at that point we are just on a slip-n-slide

this is death-centric faith, that is a slave to beliefs, which is why they must be so rigidly held, and cannot change in the slightest. imo.

[shazeep]

and i see that i have put you in a position; so please take these as rhetorical if you like. i am strictly trying to get you to abandon your beliefs here, i will not lie.

[KeptByTheWord]

Maybe the pastor was buying beer to make beer bread. That stuff is good! Or maybe they were inviting people over for a BBQ and was going to marinate the meat in beer.

We can jump to conclusions, without knowing the whole story.

For example, I sent my husband to the grocery store to buy a bottle of vodka, mostly because just going in that store makes me uncomfortable with the types of people who are there. So he went for me.

So, if someone from our fellowship saw my husband leaving with a bottle of vodka, they could choose to think he was inbibing.

However, without finding out the whole essence of the story...they would not know that I am using the vodka to make my own homemade vanilla extract.

So you see how we can see something, and perceive it is something, and judge instantly, without knowing all the details.

And on the opposite side of the coin... say someone checks out at Wal-Mart, and along with all their other groceries, they buy bleach and a can of spray paint. No one would think that they were up to something bad, just getting things needed for the home. But that person could be going home to mix up some meth and get high.

We all tend to judge like this... we want to believe that the obvious is really the obvious, when it may not be.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Yes, this is keeping me from work that I need to be doing too, lol! Have fun painting furniture, sounds more fun that what I have to do... we ordered 80 pounds of chicken from Zaycon, and need to package it up for the freezer... brr. lol!

Okay, I wasn't having fun with one of the projects, but it was better than putting up chickens. LOL! Note to self: Not all chalk paint brands are the same! Ugh! Putting on a brand that is acting like acrylic paint. Now I don't know what I am going to do about sanding the piece as it's scratching the paint no matter how fine the sandpaper. Chalk paint isn't supposed to do that. Ugh!

Okay, going to put out my thoughts and then try to tackle that furniture piece again. I keep looking at it and walking back into the house. LOL! I might need another cup of coffee first. LOL!

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I think we currently have about 4 or 5 threads going right now all on the same subject, lol... and it gets a bit tedious keeping up with it all, lol!

To reiterate: I am not against speaking in tongues, I am as for it as you are, and my life has never been the same without the gift of tongues. I do believe the spirit of God is developed more fully within me with the gifting of tongues.

I just posted the below on another thread...

While the spirit of God most certainly can gift one with the gift of tongues... there is not ONE clear scripture that specifically says, unless you speak with tongues, you have NOT received the spirit of the Lord. Hence the discussion.

Even in Mark 16:15-17... it says that the signs shall FOLLOW them that believe. It does NOT say that the signs would come with salvation but that they would FOLLOW salvation. Note that it says he that believeth, and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED. And then it says... these signs shall FOLLOW them that believe.

The Word also says that you are saved if you repent, saved if you call upon the name of Jesus Christ, saved if you believe. All of these are a factor. And it stands to reason that you would receive the Spirit of God when you first believe, and at least at repentance, as I have seen many receive the Holy Ghost after repentance and before they were baptized.
I believe we should stress repentance much more than speaking in tongues. Repentance is a very deep commitment and should be taken very seriously. When we say I am doing a 180, we really need to mean that. Of course, It doesn’t mean we won’t make mistakes along way after coming to Christ.

Mark 16:16-7
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The tongues are a gift of God, a sign that follows them that believe, and the tongues are NOT ever equated in scripture specifically as a sign of salvation, rather tongues are part of the signs that will FOLLOW them that believe.

With this understanding... tongues are one of the signs that FOLLOW the believer, and this is key here. There are other signs and gifts too, but tongues seems to be the easiest one to recognize.

After one believes and is baptized = salvation happens Mark 16:16
After one believes, signs shall follow them, tongues being one of the signs.

More to the point, I am glad that you brought that up – tongues seem to be the easiest one to recognize. Let’s look at the story in Acts chapter 8:
Noteable:

1) Phillip goes down to Samaria to preach Christ to the people,
2) The people listened to and believed what Phillip was preaching, because they saw the miracles taking place – unclean spirits crying out; those taken with palsies and lame were healed;
3) There was “great” joy in the city.
4) Simon the Sorcerer had claimed to be the great one, bewitching the people, who now sees that he is not so great as Phillip.
5) All the men and woman that believed Phillip’s preaching the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ turned away from Simon and were baptized.
6) Simon himself believed, was baptized and followed Phillip and wondered/was astounded by the miracles and signs he saw at Phillip’s hand.
7) The Apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God and sent Peter and John to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost.
8) It hadn’t fallen as yet, because they only/merely were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
9) After laying hands on the people, they received the Holy Ghost.
10) Simon offers them money so that he can also lay hands on people so that they will receive the Holy Ghost.

What is interesting in this chapter:

1) The Word was preached, signs and miracles followed
2) The people believed and obeyed
3) THERE WAS GREAT JOY IN THE CITY
4) Peter and John understood that the people in Samaria were not, as yet, Spirit filled.
5) Simon didn’t want to give money to perform the multitude of miracles he witnessed, he saw something happen when Peter and John laid hands on the people and they received the Holy Ghost.
6) It wasn’t the miracles and the joy in the city that interested Simon the most. It was the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

So, because speaking in tongues seems to be the norm in the Book of Acts, I take it that Simon saw something that was worth purchasing. It certainly wasn’t to hear the Sinner’s Prayer and “now you have the Holy Spirit, Praise God”. Simon had already seen people delivered from devils, but he wanted to purchase something else “observable”. I conclude that to be the infilling of the Holy Ghost as it follows the narrative of the whole book, speaking in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance. How he thought he could or had the right to purchase that is beyond me.

Anyway, this is what I would share with someone and let them come to their own conclusion as to whether or not they should speak in tongues.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by shazeep

.

this is death-centric faith, that is a slave to beliefs, which is why they must be so rigidly held, and cannot change in the slightest. imo.

I agree, we are slaves to our beliefs. We either serve sin unto death or we serve the Spirit unto life. There are several references in the OT where the Levites were not permitted to drink wine or strong drink because of their service to the Lord. No wine or strong drink permitted if they were going into the holiest of holies (for sure). The same Spirit of God that filled that earthly tabernacle now dwells inside the child of God. So it's o.k. now to go into the holiest of holies (have the Holy Ghost) and drink alcohol?

People make a case that the children of Israel were permitted to drink wine and strong drink, but they also where serving God under a lesser covenant. We serve God today after a better covenant. I can't disprove moderately drinking by scripture, but the Spirit within me tells me its wrong.

Having battled with alcoholism, there is no way I would tempt myself again with alcohol. As for me judging another for carrying out a twelve pack, I certainly would. I would not have confidence in their salvation seeing them buy beer or any alcoholic product. Who cares about my opinion though. If a person is fully persuaded in what they allow that is up to them.

All this talk about judging gets crazy. Shazeep you said you were trying to open my mind to a another way and are trying to change my beliefs. In essence you must think my beliefs are wrong or why else try to change them (judging). The question is, are we judging righteously? I would never want someone to jeopardize their convictions for my sake. I don't think we should let differences divide us unless it brings harm to the body (heresy, immorality, etc....)(P.S. IMO I think alcohol brings about immorality if not immoral in itself)

As far as the vampire girl goes if she repents and obeys the gospel I would not try to hold her looks over her head. I feel sorry for her though because looking like that is going to cause you problems the rest of your life (and not just by Christians).

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Okay, I wasn't having fun with one of the projects, but it was better than putting up chickens. LOL! Note to self: Not all chalk paint brands are the same! Ugh! Putting on a brand that is acting like acrylic paint. Now I don't know what I am going to do about sanding the piece as it's scratching the paint no matter how fine the sandpaper. Chalk paint isn't supposed to do that. Ugh!

Okay, going to put out my thoughts and then try to tackle that furniture piece again. I keep looking at it and walking back into the house. LOL! I might need another cup of coffee first. LOL!

Did you make your own chalk paint? I have made my own using drywall paste mixed with my paint, and it worked okay. I also have used Amy Howard's brand of chalk paint, and while I really liked it, it was sooo expensive!

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

The Word also says that you are saved if you repent, saved if you call upon the name of Jesus Christ, saved if you believe. All of these are a factor. And it stands to reason that you would receive the Spirit of God when you first believe, and at least at repentance, as I have seen many receive the Holy Ghost after repentance and before they were baptized. I believe we should stress repentance much more than speaking in tongues. Repentance is a very deep commitment and should be taken very seriously. When we say I am doing a 180, we really need to mean that. Of course, It doesn’t mean we won’t make mistakes along way after coming to Christ.

More to the point, I am glad that you brought that up – tongues seem to be the easiest one to recognize. Let’s look at the story in Acts chapter 8:
Noteable:

1) Phillip goes down to Samaria to preach Christ to the people,
2) The people listened to and believed what Phillip was preaching, because they saw the miracles taking place – unclean spirits crying out; those taken with palsies and lame were healed;
3) There was “great” joy in the city.
4) Simon the Sorcerer had claimed to be the great one, bewitching the people, who now sees that he is not so great as Phillip.
5) All the men and woman that believed Phillip’s preaching the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ turned away from Simon and were baptized.
6) Simon himself believed, was baptized and followed Phillip and wondered/was astounded by the miracles and signs he saw at Phillip’s hand.
7) The Apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God and sent Peter and John to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost.
8) It hadn’t fallen as yet, because they only/merely were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
9) After laying hands on the people, they received the Holy Ghost.
10) Simon offers them money so that he can also lay hands on people so that they will receive the Holy Ghost.

What is interesting in this chapter:

1) The Word was preached, signs and miracles followed
2) The people believed and obeyed
3) THERE WAS GREAT JOY IN THE CITY
4) Peter and John understood that the people in Samaria were not, as yet, Spirit filled.
5) Simon didn’t want to give money to perform the multitude of miracles he witnessed, he saw something happen when Peter and John laid hands on the people and they received the Holy Ghost.
6) It wasn’t the miracles and the joy in the city that interested Simon the most. It was the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

So, because speaking in tongues seems to be the norm in the Book of Acts, I take it that Simon saw something that was worth purchasing. It certainly wasn’t to hear the Sinner’s Prayer and “now you have the Holy Spirit, Praise God”. Simon had already seen people delivered from devils, but he wanted to purchase something else “observable”. I conclude that to be the infilling of the Holy Ghost as it follows the narrative of the whole book, speaking in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance. How he thought he could or had the right to purchase that is beyond me.

Anyway, this is what I would share with someone and let them come to their own conclusion as to whether or not they should speak in tongues.

I like this PO, this is awesome, and really quite agrees with how I see it too. It is so obvious that the signs and miracles followed those that believe, which would totally follow with Mark 16:16, and is exactly what happened in this passage. It is so clear throughout Acts that signs and wonders followed the believers.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I too would tell someone who is seeking Christ, to seek after it all, and to let the gifting happen as He wills, and not tell someone that if they don't receive, they are lost. That sets them up for failure of not having full faith, in my mind.

The difference in perspective can make the difference in faith for the one seeking Jesus.

A measure of the spirit of the Lord Jesus must be present in order for full repentance and baptism to take place, and the gifting and signs that follow will open wide the door for the spirit of the Lord to fully work as it desires in the heart of a believer.

[shazeep]

nice!

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I agree, we are slaves to our beliefs. We either serve sin unto death or we serve the Spirit unto life.

i am surprised to hear you say that you are slave to your "beliefs," as you are bout to elucidate that that is following the law, OT style; but i suspect we might need a common lexicon for "faith" and "beliefs" here before we proceed, also.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

There are several references in the OT where the Levites were not permitted to drink wine or strong drink because of their service to the Lord. No wine or strong drink permitted if they were going into the holiest of holies (for sure). The same Spirit of God that filled that earthly tabernacle now dwells inside the child of God. So it's o.k. now to go into the holiest of holies (have the Holy Ghost) and drink alcohol?

nothing wrong imo with a glass of wine/beer before bed, after all human interaction for the day has ceased. But then, i am not an alcoholic, and so i am free from having to labor under that set of preconceptions, premises. So, a sin for you is not a sin for me.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

People make a case that the children of Israel were permitted to drink wine and strong drink, but they also where serving God under a lesser covenant. We serve God today after a better covenant. I can't disprove moderately drinking by scripture, but the Spirit within me tells me its wrong.

Having battled with alcoholism, there is no way I would tempt myself again with alcohol. As for me judging another for carrying out a twelve pack, I certainly would. I would not have confidence in their salvation seeing them buy beer or any alcoholic product. Who cares about my opinion though. If a person is fully persuaded in what they allow that is up to them.

the contradiction here is striking; how do you reconcile "As for me judging...I certainly would" and "If a person is fully persuaded in what they allow that is up to them?"

Originally Posted by good samaritan

All this talk about judging gets crazy. Shazeep you said you were trying to open my mind to a another way and are trying to change my beliefs. In essence you must think my beliefs are wrong or why else try to change them (judging).

yes, i was admitting my fault there, after telling MB that i am not trying to change his beliefs, so the distinction will be revealed. But don't you do the same, @ "As for me judging...I certainly would?"

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The question is, are we judging righteously? I would never want someone to jeopardize their convictions for my sake. I don't think we should let differences divide us unless it brings harm to the body (heresy, immorality, etc....)(P.S. IMO I think alcohol brings about immorality if not immoral in itself)

i certainly agree that that is true for you, that is your truth, your 6 to my 9, yes.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

As far as the vampire girl goes if she repents and obeys the gospel I would not try to hold her looks over her head.

you wouldn't? are you sure? because i just read up higher where you say that you in fact would, wadr.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I feel sorry for her though because looking like that is going to cause you problems the rest of your life (and not just by Christians).

and yet she is smiling, seems to be happy enough, in the picture. She isn't causing me any problems, and i am (nominally) a "Christian."

[good samaritan]

i am surprised to hear you say that you are slave to your "beliefs," as you are bout to elucidate that that is following the law, OT style; but i suspect we might need a common lexicon for "faith" and "beliefs" here before we proceed, also.

Whatever it is that we serve we are servants. You are servant to your belief. The question is what do we believe. I hope it is Jesus Christ and his righteousness.

nothing wrong imo with a glass of wine/beer before bed, after all human interaction for the day has ceased. But then, i am not an alcoholic, and so i am free from having to labor under that set of preconceptions, premises. So, a sin for you is not a sin for me.

Sounds innocent enough when you put it that way, but. We are ministers of righteousness and soberness is necessary. As far as the pastor here is some of his biblical requirements: .

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous

the contradiction here is striking; how do you reconcile "As for me judging...I certainly would" and "If a person is fully persuaded in what they allow that is up to them?"

No contradiction at all, everyone at some point judges as well as Paul in our Bible. One day someone is going to be wrong and that is when God's righteous judgement will occur. In other words any of us can be wrong, but God is not. If you know without a doubt your way of life than why care about what I think about you. BTW, I like you shazeep. Nothing you say here comes off offensive to me although I disagree.

yes, i was admitting my fault there, after telling MB that i am not trying to change his beliefs, so the distinction will be revealed. But don't you do the same, @ "As for me judging...I certainly would?

"

Yes, you are correct. In the end somebody is going to be wrong. Though, I am betting it is you, lol.

i certainly agree that that is true for you, that is your truth, your 6 to my 9, yes

??? Your six to my nine???

you wouldn't? are you sure? because i just read up higher where you say that you in fact would, wadr.

Alot of the things she has done are permanent. Some of them she can't change. I would see her as forgiven. Now if she is continuing to destroy her body after conversion, then that I would judge.

Judging (My def)-the way I think about someone or something.

and yet she is smiling, seems to be happy enough, in the picture. She isn't causing me any problems, and i am (nominally) a "Christian."

What does her smiling have to do with her being a Christian?

[shazeep]

3 Not given to wine,

"is not given over to wine, not ruled by wine"
"has not compromised himself with overdoing wine."

Yes, you are correct. In the end somebody is going to be wrong. Though, I am betting it is you, lol.

? well, i admitted i was wrong already, GS. And you did not answer my question, exactly. Or else it seems you just admitted--@ "Yes, you are correct," that the "wrong" shoes are on the "wrong" feet here. So could you rephrase this? ty

??? Your six to my nine???



What does her smiling have to do with her being a Christian?

what does her being a Christian (or not) have to do with "I feel sorry for her though because looking like that is going to cause you problems the rest of your life (and not just by Christians)." Iow why do you feel sorry for her? Because looking like that is going to cause her problems? How are these problems going to manifest exactly, do you think? Could you give me a scenario, so i can get a clue here? Iow there is no wrong answer, just make up a potential "problem" that you envision occurring for her, ty.