Ferd, only logged in for a sec... but wanted to respond to this.
Not one single translation available is the "actual words that were written." None of them.
but not all of them are "thought translations"
im not bashing The Message. like I said, I use it often. But there are times when it leaves something to be desired. this is one of those cases.
I know my post is long.... and I hate long posts, but review it. its an actual honest answer to your question about "us guys" that dont like The Message... which i really do like...
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
but not all of them are "thought translations"
im not bashing The Message. like I said, I use it often. But there are times when it leaves something to be desired. this is one of those cases.
I know my post is long.... and I hate long posts, but review it. its an actual honest answer to your question about "us guys" that dont like The Message... which i really do like...
Found that to be so true with the Message, Ferdinand.
LOL! Dude I use The Message to study quite often. it's one of a dozen versions. and its in my top 5. But as you point out it is an exegeted version.
which means it is someones understanding of what this passage means. NOT the actual words that were written then translated.
I like the way the message gives this passage. it is a great view of the passage, but I don't think you can say it is the only view.
That is one of the most awesome things about scripture. One passage holds layers of wisdom.
This passage is a good example.
good life is a fruit-bearing tree;
a violent life destroys souls.
great words... it even conveys a message expressed here in these verses. But it doesnt provide a complete understanding of the exact words in the verse
even the new living translation that agrees with you, gives us something that The Message misses.
30 The seeds of good deeds become a tree of life;
a wise person wins friends.[a]
And then there are versions like Darby that say it this way
30The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and the wise winneth souls.
The Message, provides us something of real value. But it doesnt provide us with the full context of the passage here.
How's that for a short version from "us guys"?
oh and seriously my Pulpit Commentary does not agree with you. They all say that the winning of souls here is the winning of people to God.
Matthew Henry disagrees with you too.
he says (and I am typing here as it is a real book)
This shows what great blessings good men are, especially those that are eminently wise, to the places where they live, and therefore how much to be valued. 1. The righteous are as trees of life; the fruits of that tree, the precious and useful, contributing to the support and nurishment of the spiritual life in many; they are the ornaments of paradise, God's church on earth, for whose sake it stands. 2. The wise are something more; they are as trees of knowledge . He that is wise, by communicating his wisdom, wins souls, wins upon them to bring them in love with God and holiness, and so wins them over into the interests of God's kingdom among men. The wise are said to turn many to righteousness, and that is the same with winning souls here, Dan 12:3. Abraham's proselytes are called the souls that he had gotten, Gen 12:5. Those that would win souls have need of wisdom to know how to deal with them; and those that do win souls show that they are wise.
Winning Souls in the passage has to be more than just the idea that a wise man wins friends or wins people to himself. The passage here from vs 28 contrasts temporal things with Godly things.
Wisdom cannot be temporal in this passage any more that righteousness can be.
He who relies on riches will fall. But the righteous man is a tree... and a wise man wins souls. How can that be about something as mundane as gaining friends? Friends cannot last beyond a lifetime. It has value for sure. but so does riches. The Preacher here is speaking of a winning that has the value of righteousness. You cannot turn wisdom into something so temporary.
Ferd, I agree that the message isn't the "all in all" with biblical interpretation. I respect Patterson's exegesis, and have found he usually gets right to the bottom of things in his paraphrase.
The concept of "layers of wisdom" is one I've heard used by preachers in my past who approached scripture as a creative jigsaw puzzle that they could make different pictures and render their own interpretations. You may not have intended that, but it reminded me of these men. Duvall/Hays write an incredible short-form book called "Grasping God's Word" (it's really a lighter version of Fee's "Interpreting Scripture") and they really ask the right question: "What is meaning, and who controls it, the author or the reader? (Again, this is a tangent from the Prov 11 for a second, but more responsive to the idea of scriptural layers). I'm very much after the idea of authorial intent.
That aside, Proverbs, as I wrote in an earlier post, is Wisdom Literature. It's not Epistle-like instructions on holiness. It's how to live a fulfilling life. (see my prior post) Even those interpreters who kept the word "soul," it should be known that a "soul" has so many different meanings outside of one's eternal spirit. The word is "nephesh"-- one of the many definitions is "person or individual." Translators who have left the language as the English word "souls" have not really tip their hand too heavily with how they are interpreting this since even the English word for "souls" has many variations. But what's important is to focus on the Hebrew not the English variations.
Having friends may seem trite, since I am arguing against a popular Evangelical take on this being someone's "eternal state" in a salvific way. But such is much of the way the Wisdom literature is written.
Rings of gold in swine's snouts, instruction for those who wish to be prosperous, etc...
The word "righteous" here is Tsaddiyq. There are a few variations, but the sense this being used is not the sense Paul uses the word in Romans. Where Paul uses the sense of righteous as justified and vindicated by God, here it is likely "right, correct, lawful, just." And this makes sense out of the whole of the Wisdom literature.
I take back my comment about you with The Message. It was knee jerk and probably mostly due to the fact that you were leaving comments about dogs and vomit before that There are many, though, who love to read The Message until it crosses swords with them. That's when I'd encourage the people to dig into exegetical commentaries, try to exegete themselves, etc. and to do so without trying to read their own pre-conceived ideas in the Text. This is advice of virtually every hermeneutic textbook I've ever read. We are all prone to it.
So I truly don't see Proverbs 11, even contrary to Matthew Henry, as being a verse about bringing non-Jews into relationship with Yahweh. I believe it's about those, who live in the way the Proverbs exhort, becoming a living "proverb" in one sense.... but I do think the "blessing part" of v30 (most of the verses have a blessing clause) is having many friends. Friends were considered wealth in those times. Reflect on Job who was cursed by losing all of his friends. Having many friends (there's many other references that show this) is a blessing. It's not eternal. But neither is wealth. But I think what's in view here is how those who live just will be rewarded on earth (the final verse 31). http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/proverbs/11.html
Thanks for taking the time to articulate your position on Proverbs 11.
im not bashing The Message. like I said, I use it often. But there are times when it leaves something to be desired. this is one of those cases.
I know my post is long.... and I hate long posts, but review it. its an actual honest answer to your question about "us guys" that dont like The Message... which i really do like...
Okay, okay, okay... I went back and read... and responded.
BTW, I've found every translation I've ever used to have something to be desired on occasion. I would have to say the KJV was often the biggest target of my ire. At least The Message and "thought-for-thought" translations you realize you are getting a exegeted panned out view of the Text, with KJV, not only have certain words been wrong, but the King's English is often so foreign to our English that I've seen some horrible things done with the Text in KJV. I still enjoy the KJV in memory verses... the Psalms, particular passages, etc... I mean, all the time I spent in KJV, my brain is still a "KJV brain" ha.
Another thing, in the argument of thought-for-though and word-for-word translations, many seem to think they are "safer" with word-for-word. That's interesting, because the proclivity to error is about the same... some would argue moreso. If you were studying and exegeting yourself, word-for-word may be better for you, but even then, I like translations like ESV or NIV (more centrist). Not considering the whole message of the Text is a huge part of exegesis. And hyper-literal translations don't give consideration to that, which has caused many of them to be errant.
I think we've had a whole thread on this topic before, so I won't belabor the point. You may even agree... and I may be "preaching to the choir."
Okay, okay, okay... I went back and read... and responded.
BTW, I've found every translation I've ever used to have something to be desired on occasion. I would have to say the KJV was often the biggest target of my ire. At least The Message and "thought-for-thought" translations you realize you are getting a exegeted panned out view of the Text, with KJV, not only have certain words been wrong, but the King's English is often so foreign to our English that I've seen some horrible things done with the Text in KJV. I still enjoy the KJV in memory verses... the Psalms, particular passages, etc... I mean, all the time I spent in KJV, my brain is still a "KJV brain" ha.
Another thing, in the argument of thought-for-though and word-for-word translations, many seem to think they are "safer" with word-for-word. That's interesting, because the proclivity to error is about the same... some would argue moreso. If you were studying and exegeting yourself, word-for-word may be better for you, but even then, I like translations like ESV or NIV (more centrist). Not considering the whole message of the Text is a huge part of exegesis. And hyper-literal translations don't give consideration to that, which has caused many of them to be errant.
I think we've had a whole thread on this topic before, so I won't belabor the point. You may even agree... and I may be "preaching to the choir."
This is the reason I use about 12 different versions and a good half dozen reference works when i am studing... I dont do that all the time but the more difficult the passage, the more references I go to.
in general in prep for a sermon or for teaching, I use at least 3 or 4 versions and at least Vines.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
LOL! Dude I use The Message to study quite often. it's one of a dozen versions. and its in my top 5. But as you point out it is an exegeted version.
which means it is someones understanding of what this passage means. NOT the actual words that were written then translated.
I like the way the message gives this passage. it is a great view of the passage, but I don't think you can say it is the only view.
That is one of the most awesome things about scripture. One passage holds layers of wisdom.
This passage is a good example.
good life is a fruit-bearing tree;
a violent life destroys souls.
great words... it even conveys a message expressed here in these verses. But it doesnt provide a complete understanding of the exact words in the verse
even the new living translation that agrees with you, gives us something that The Message misses.
30 The seeds of good deeds become a tree of life;
a wise person wins friends.[a]
And then there are versions like Darby that say it this way
30The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and the wise winneth souls.
The Message, provides us something of real value. But it doesnt provide us with the full context of the passage here.
How's that for a short version from "us guys"?
oh and seriously my Pulpit Commentary does not agree with you. They all say that the winning of souls here is the winning of people to God.
Matthew Henry disagrees with you too.
he says (and I am typing here as it is a real book)
This shows what great blessings good men are, especially those that are eminently wise, to the places where they live, and therefore how much to be valued. 1. The righteous are as trees of life; the fruits of that tree, the precious and useful, contributing to the support and nurishment of the spiritual life in many; they are the ornaments of paradise, God's church on earth, for whose sake it stands. 2. The wise are something more; they are as trees of knowledge . He that is wise, by communicating his wisdom, wins souls, wins upon them to bring them in love with God and holiness, and so wins them over into the interests of God's kingdom among men. The wise are said to turn many to righteousness, and that is the same with winning souls here, Dan 12:3. Abraham's proselytes are called the souls that he had gotten, Gen 12:5. Those that would win souls have need of wisdom to know how to deal with them; and those that do win souls show that they are wise.
Winning Souls in the passage has to be more than just the idea that a wise man wins friends or wins people to himself. The passage here from vs 28 contrasts temporal things with Godly things.
Wisdom cannot be temporal in this passage any more that righteousness can be.
He who relies on riches will fall. But the righteous man is a tree... and a wise man wins souls. How can that be about something as mundane as gaining friends? Friends cannot last beyond a lifetime. It has value for sure. but so does riches. The Preacher here is speaking of a winning that has the value of righteousness. You cannot turn wisdom into something so temporary.
I just went through several online commentaries (including Henry)....about 6....and half of them said evangelism-type things, and the other half said the types of things that social-man is saying. Seems like a 50/50 split.
I saw one difference...the evangelism people didn't actually investigate the meaning of the translated words, only the term, "Soul-winning" and they simply talked about how important it is to be a soul-winner and seemed to simply rely on the traditional usage of the word. Seemed weak to me.
In order for us to see Pro 11:30 as an evangelism verse, it seems we would need to see Old Testament precedent for evangelism. Is there any? Did Old Testament Israel hit the streets of the Philistines, passing out tracts and inviting them to home bible studies? I don't see it. I mostly see they were trying to kill these people, not convert them.
There are many, though, who love to read The Message until it crosses swords with them. That's when I'd encourage the people to dig into exegetical commentaries, try to exegete themselves, etc. and to do so without trying to read their own pre-conceived ideas in the Text. This is advice of virtually every hermeneutic textbook I've ever read. We are all prone to it. 
Linear Mode
