The Proverbs 11 Thread

[Praxeas]

Everyone is waiting to find out what verse 30 is about. Now is your chance to tell us what it is or is not about and why.

Pro 11:25 A generous person will be enriched, and the one who provides water for others will himself be satisfied.
Pro 11:26 People will curse the one who withholds grain, but they will praise the one who sells it.
Pro 11:27 The one who diligently seeks good seeks favor, but the one who searches for evil — it will come to him.
Pro 11:28 The one who trusts in his riches will fall, but the righteous will flourish like a green leaf.
Pro 11:29 The one who troubles his family will inherit nothing, and the fool will be a servant to the wise person.
Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is like a tree producing life, and the one who wins souls is wise.
Pro 11:31 If the righteous are recompensed on earth, how much more the wicked sinner!

[rgcraig]

I like how (The Message) puts it.

30 A good life is a fruit-bearing tree;
a violent life destroys souls.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I like how (The Message) puts it.

30 A good life is a fruit-bearing tree;
a violent life destroys souls.

That's based on a variant textual reading

NET bible commentary:An alternate textual tradition reads חָמָס (khamas) "violent" (reflected in the LXX and Syriac) and refers to taking away lives: "but the one who takes away lives (= kills people) is violent" (cf. NAB, NRSV). The textual variant was caused by orthographic confusion of ס (samek) and כ (kaf), and metathesis of מ (mem) between the 2nd and 3rd consonants. If the parallelism is synonymous, the MT reading fits; if the parallelism is antithetical, the alternate tradition fits. See D. C. Snell, "'Taking Souls' in Pro_11:30," VT 33 (1083): 362-65.

[Praxeas]

BTW please put some clothes on that turkey......we have some people here sensitive to nudity

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW please put some clothes on that turkey......we have some people here sensitive to nudity

That turkey does have on clothes --- a beige bikini! If someone is sensitive to a turkey, then we have bigger problems here than we suspected!

Of course, I do remember having to delete an avatar of a cartoon Wonder Woman because it offended someone.

Back to the scripture - how could one "win souls" in the OT?

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I like how (The Message) puts it.

30 A good life is a fruit-bearing tree;
a violent life destroys souls.

The message is nice for conveying some simple concepts but if you are looking to dig down and grasp deep meaning, it isnt the "go to" version.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

That turkey does have on clothes --- a beige bikini! If someone is sensitive to a turkey, then we have bigger problems here than we suspected!

Of course, I do remember having to delete an avatar of a cartoon Wonder Woman because it offended someone.

Back to the scripture - how could one "win souls" in the OT?

Going back to the commentary

tc The MT reads חָכָם (khakham, "wise") and seems to refer to capturing (לָקַח, laqakh; "to lay hold of; to seize; to capture") people with influential ideas (e.g., 2Sa_15:6)

2Sa 15:6 Absalom acted this way toward everyone in Israel who would come to the king for justice. In this way Absalom won the loyalty of the citizens of Israel.

2Sa 15:6 Thus Absalom did to all of Israel who came to the king for judgment. So Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel.

Now also consider the context
Pro 11:29 Whoever troubles his own household will inherit the wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise of heart.
Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.
Pro 11:31 If the righteous is repaid on earth, how much more the wicked and the sinner!

The topic includes righteousness and those that are sinners. Aside from the NET bible commentary about Absolom, consider what the term means

capturing people with influential ideas

It could mean, since in the context it's the righteous vs the unrighteous, turning a sinner to righteousness, to follow righteousness.

Wisdom
Pro 8:14 Counsel and sound wisdom are mine; I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 Princes rule by me, and nobles, all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I love those who love me; and those who seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honor are with me; enduring riches and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and what I give is better than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment;
Pro 8:21 I may cause those who love me to inherit riches; and I will fill their treasuries.

In the text we have those that are righteous and those that pursue unrighteous or evil
Pro 11:18 The wicked makes a deceitful wage; but one sowing righteousness has a sure reward.
Pro 11:19 So righteousness tends to life; but one pursuing evil, it is to his own death.

Perhaps "winning souls" is about turning those who pursue evil to the path of righteousness

[Ferd]

My Pulpit commentary (used by trinitarians the world over) tells me v30 speaks to bringing people to a greater understanding of God... helping them see the need to turn away from the things of this world.

it does not suggest that wise men by their nature win others to them.


there is a suggestion that this is a matter of winning men to God.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Ferd

The message is nice for conveying some simple concepts but if you are looking to dig down and grasp deep meaning, it isnt the "go to" version.

No, it's an actual exegeted version that quite often nails the "message" of what is being said.

Love you you guys enjoy The Message until you disagree... yet I've seen nothing showing WHY you disagree.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Going back to the commentary

tc The MT reads חָכָם (khakham, "wise") and seems to refer to capturing (לָקַח, laqakh; "to lay hold of; to seize; to capture") people with influential ideas (e.g., 2Sa_15:6)

2Sa 15:6 Absalom acted this way toward everyone in Israel who would come to the king for justice. In this way Absalom won the loyalty of the citizens of Israel.

2Sa 15:6 Thus Absalom did to all of Israel who came to the king for judgment. So Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel.

Now also consider the context
Pro 11:29 Whoever troubles his own household will inherit the wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise of heart.
Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.
Pro 11:31 If the righteous is repaid on earth, how much more the wicked and the sinner!

The topic includes righteousness and those that are sinners. Aside from the NET bible commentary about Absolom, consider what the term means

capturing people with influential ideas

It could mean, since in the context it's the righteous vs the unrighteous, turning a sinner to righteousness, to follow righteousness.

Wisdom
Pro 8:14 Counsel and sound wisdom are mine; I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 Princes rule by me, and nobles, all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I love those who love me; and those who seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honor are with me; enduring riches and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and what I give is better than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment;
Pro 8:21 I may cause those who love me to inherit riches; and I will fill their treasuries.

In the text we have those that are righteous and those that pursue unrighteous or evil
Pro 11:18 The wicked makes a deceitful wage; but one sowing righteousness has a sure reward.
Pro 11:19 So righteousness tends to life; but one pursuing evil, it is to his own death.

Perhaps "winning souls" is about turning those who pursue evil to the path of righteousness

Prax, let's approach this without trying to prove a pre-conceived theory.