The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Nicodemus1968]

Some of these brothers like having 2,3,5 maybe even 10 Pastors to a church to better fit their “needs”. Imagine now having to support through tithe each Pastor.... LOL!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Any amount or percentage is not tithes. You are missing the fundamental understanding of God ordained tithing, including what it is, who is to receive it, what is to be done with it etc..

You are splitting hairs once again. Paul stated that the way the ministry survived by income under Law is the same way that ministers live of the gospel in the New Testament.
The law aspect of it is gone. And it matters not if it is called tithes or just a percentage. You lose the forest for the trees in your assessment.

It does not matter all the details of what shodul be done with it, so long as the New Testament mandates are fulfilled with it.

Just because you admit it is not according to the law, doesn’t change the definition of the word. You were quick to blow the trumpet and proclaim that you tithe, but you were slow to admit that you accept tithes.

You're on a witch hunt, bro. I did not, again, did not, intentionally be slower on mentioning that I receive tithes when I stated that I give tithes. This shows me the disengenuous aspect that we're dealing with here. I simply indicated that I myself GIVE TITHES because the onus of this debate is allows on the one who actually GIVES, and teh argument is always DO YOU GIVE TITHES.

So . . .

Another question:

Do the widows in your church receive tithes?

I already asked about this and you never answered. Where does the new testament teach to give tithes to widows?

The choir members?

What qualifies you to receive tithes?

I never demanded tithes from the start. I never once told anyone they have to give tithes to me. Never.

Because you preach?

Pastor?

I’ll be waiting on your answers.

I'm still waiting on your answers.

Is this such an issue with you that it is the reason you called yourself TITHEMEISTER?

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

God defined the tithe. If you don’t know what God’s definition of tithe is, I suggest you get to studying. Do you teach tithing as a doctrine, yet you don’t know what it means?

Could you be any more condescending? You know good and well that Bro. Blume is not advocating tithes as found in the Mosaic law. He is saying that he chose to cheerfully give 10% (which is what the word means) and that God has blessed his giving. You may not like the terms used, but he is absolutely not preaching what you are harping against.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

It was Sarcasm, brother, in response to EB saying that people can't be told to give free-will because otherwise they would give .50.
I was referring to the good response of the children of Israel to the call to collect offering for the Tabernacle in Exo 35.
Paul also called for a voluntary offering to bless the church in Jerusalem and people responded. Basically responding to the false argument that you must impose 10% on people otherwise they won't give.

Listen, there is NOTHING mandertory. Not one thing is mandatory, or to be done in your own human will. You can't live for Jesus Christ without the Holy Ghost Spirit of truth guiding you into all truth. Whether it's your pet peeve 10 percent, or free will giving of an embarrassed saint's folded into pill size dollar bill, to airplane fuel expenses for a missionary pastor flying to the Amazon. It is all done through the Holy Ghost. I don't mock .50 donation, I know why it was given. But the whole argument for and against tithing is weak because half of you people don't have enough pieces of the puzzle. So the ones you strike a cord with are the neophyte, and the disgruntled.

Good job

Richard Dawkins would be proud.

[mfblume]

Tithe is literally and ONLY ten percent of ANYTHING. That is what tithe means literally. Come on, Meister, you know that, or you should.

It's like the word DOZEN. It means 12. Nothing more. And there is an old covenant DOCTRINE that ADDS to the term TITHE which is what you are actually thinking of, not TTHE itself. You assume taht because the word TITHE is connected in the Old Covenant with a teaching about it, that any time someone says that they "TITHE," you think of the commandment details with what to do with it in all its intricacies under Law. But if someone wants to call their giving by the term TITHE because it is ten percent they always give, then that does not necessarily demand that the commandment "associated with" tithes in the Law has to be adhered to. They know what the word TITHE means when you do not!

So, you need to study more perfectly, since you're a meister about it, what TITHE actually means.

To prove my case:

H4643
מַעַשְׂרָה...... מַעֲשַׂר...... מַעֲשֵׂר
ma‛ăśêr...... ma‛ăśar...... ma‛aśrâh
mah-as-ayr', mah-as-ar', mah-as-raw'
From H6240; a tenth; especially a tithe: - tenth (part), tithe (-ing).
Total KJV occurrences: 32

Notice it says a TENTH AND NOTHING ELSE?

No commandments with what to do with that tenth. It simply means TENTH. Anyone who looks up the term in the Hebrew lexicon would not find one iota of a thought about what to do with the TITHE. TITHE means one-tenth and NOTHING ELSE.

So, these are the detailed TREES you are missing for the forest. While you speak and speak so much about tithes and even have it in your namesake here, you failed to miss the most plain detail of them all. TITHE only means ten per cent and NOTHING ELSE. You've been focusing on the commandment associated with it under law, which is not part of the term itself, and think that it is part and parcel with the definition of the term TITHE. You've done that so much that if someone gives a consistent ten percent of their income and technically and correctly call it tithing, then you hammer them for not tagging on the associated commandments from law, when the use of the term was not invalidated by the tither whatsoever!

In reality, you are not against TITHE, itself, in the church but rather the law ASSOCIATED WITH TITHES.

While people rail on others for taking something from LAW and demanding they're wrong, the fact is they are the ones being legalistic because they fail to realize that if one does not give tithes as a law with its "related" commandments about where it goes, and they proceed to demand people tag on the commandments if they are going to use the term TITHE. You turn around and make legalists out of people when you are supposed to be speaking against legalism of the law. You do not allow people to use the word TITHE to describe the giving of ten per cent to the world of God unless they tag on the commandments from law with that giving, even though the term itself has nothing to do with the commandments and did not require them at all!

How ironic!

While you are against law-keeping, and therefore demand people do not give tithes, your failure to recognize that the word TITHE is fulfilled nicely in someone who gives ten percent of their income without all of the law's tagged-on requirements of what to do with it, you inadvertently are throwing law-keeping into the term TITHE when it has nothing to do with what is done with the currency!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

What these men really want is for you to ask them this question.

How do you give to your church and whats the scripture base for doing so?

Several of these men/women need the word to say exactly _____, or exactly _____, other wise they will not believe. It’s a matter of internal issues.

In response to this, allow me to comment. When taking up an offering or tithes, the congregation is often urged to “give as unto the Lord”. Giving as unto the Lord is described very specifically in Matthew 25. Giving as NOT unto the Lord is covered as well.

[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

God defined the tithe. If you don’t know what God’s definition of tithe is, I suggest you get to studying. Do you teach tithing as a doctrine, yet you don’t know what it means?

Originally Posted by Ehud

Could you be any more condescending? You know good and well that Bro. Blume is not advocating tithes as found in the Mosaic law. He is saying that he chose to cheerfully give 10% (which is what the word means) and that God has blessed his giving. You may not like the terms used, but he is absolutely not preaching what you are harping against.

I didn’t direct this comment to Brother Blume. This comment was to Brother Nicodemus. Who advocates and teaches a different doctrine on tithing than Brother Blume.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

In response to this, allow me to comment. When taking up an offering or tithes, the congregation is often urged to “give as unto the Lord”. Giving as unto the Lord is described very specifically in Matthew 25. Giving as NOT unto the Lord is covered as well.

[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I’m trying to understand your reasoning for this verse? Are you writing that this is how were to give unto the Lord? So, if this is your “tithe” Your going to do this a 1/10 of every week, or month?

Listen, if you don't feel tithe is essential then don't do it. You don't have to feel you have to prove me wrong or yourself right. Walk in the light that you have been shown. I preached it very simple, just live what you preach. I preach tithe, I don't say there is a certain amount, I wouldn’t know if they give 10% because I don't know what people make, its none of my business. I’m able to preach it because I live it, i gave to the ministry of my Pastor for 17 years I gave 10% tithe and 5% offering every week, every month, every year. I don't believe its salvational I believe it has to do with being blessed. Worldly finance counselors will tell you to give at least 10% to a church or charity because they have seen first hand that some way some how it comes back to you in more that what you have given. Tithe is a conviction of mine, you may not have the same conviction are you less, not at all. Well pick on each other, hopefully in all fun and games, yet live what you preach, Ill respect your opinion and you respect mine.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Some of these brothers like having 2,3,5 maybe even 10 Pastors to a church to better fit their “needs”. Imagine now having to support through tithe each Pastor.... LOL!

Thank you for saying this. It is actually the response I was hoping for. I thought you might be the one who would say it.

You see brother, we agree about something. We agree that a pastor is a gift to the church, from God. His purpose is to edify the church. Right so far?

But then it heads downhill from there. You think there should only be one in a church. I think there should be many. Why do I think so? Because, we have this wonderful gift from God, who knows uniquely how to bless us, so why not a dozen pastors?

You provided the answer. You seem to believe (I’m not wanting to put words in your mouth, but this seems to be what your post implies) that the pastor gets ten percent of your income. So, if you have ten pastors, and you give them ten percent each, of your income, you have nothing left. Don’t worry, I get the math part.

This is the unintended consequences of false doctrine. I have repeatedly invited you to post scripture supporting a pastor’s entitlement to tithes (not offerings or support, but specifically tithes) and you have, of course failed to do so, because, of course, such scripture doesn’t exist in OT or New.

But you teach and believe it anyway. And then you point out that the people can hardly afford one pastor, much less five or ten. But . . . If we weren’t having to follow the false doctrine of tithing, the affordability problem goes away. And the church can enjoy the good gifts of God without the man made restrictions of false doctrine.

God bless.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I receive tithes and I give tithes. Where does the Bible say tithes must be given to Orphans and widows? Yes, we minister to them. But where does the Bible say tithes go to them?

Right here.

[28] At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
[29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Tithesmeister, you are missing the fact that giving in faith and not by law can be done with tithes or not... Any amount or percentage. It's according to one's faith. You think the only people who tithe do so by law. That's your error.

No. I KNOW people tithe because of false doctrine being taught by many, for many years, even generations. There are many reasons why people tithe. Most are based on false teaching.

Do you know of anybody who teaches false doctrine regarding tithes?

Do you know anybody who doesn’t teach false doctrine concerning tithes, but benefits financially from a false culture of tithe doctrine?

Regarding the bold above, please don’t assume what I think. I’d rather you ask. I actually know that most, in America anyway, have been taught a corrupted version of the law tithe. I suspect you know this as well.