Ruth Heflin

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Are you saying that you have a special revelation of God that no one else has?

I would not say that, just that we seem to think that every time the word saved and salvation is used that it is talking about some set of steps one must achieve in order to obtain.

It is not what we do it is what Christ already did for us.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I would not say that, just that we seem to think that every time the word saved and salvation is used that it is talking about some set of steps one must achieve in order to obtain.

It is not what we do it is what Christ already did for us.

So... why does anyone have to "love God"? Or can a person be saved without loving God?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I would not say that, just that we seem to think that every time the word saved and salvation is used that it is talking about some set of steps one must achieve in order to obtain.

It is not what we do it is what Christ already did for us.

So, if Jesus was baptized, then we are baptized? If Jesus was crucified then we are crucified? If Jesus was buried then we were buried? If Jesus was resurrected then we are resurrected?

You don't believe that, because that isn't what the Bible means by crucified with Him, or seated with Him in heavenly places. Because you aren't God, like Jesus is God. I'll tell you a story about an individual who is in prison who believed the what I just described. I tell you after you answer this post.

In 1 John 3:3 the writer tells the church that they are to purify themselves to be as pure as Jesus. I know that ISN'T preached in churches.

But, I think the real bullet to the brain is 1 John 3:7 which says...Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Ouch, it is gonna be real hot in the hot tub! Revelation 20:10

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I would not say that, just that we seem to think that every time the word saved and salvation is used that it is talking about some set of steps one must achieve in order to obtain.

It is not what we do it is what Christ already did for us.

You mean like that song we always sing, "Jesus paid it all"?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, if Jesus was baptized, then we are baptized? If Jesus was crucified then we are crucified? If Jesus was buried then we were buried? If Jesus was resurrected then we are resurrected?

You don't believe that, because that isn't what the Bible means by crucified with Him, or seated with Him in heavenly places. Because you aren't God, like Jesus is God. I'll tell you a story about an individual who is in prison who believed the what I just described. I tell you after you answer this post.

In 1 John 3:3 the writer tells the church that they are to purify themselves to be as pure as Jesus. I know that ISN'T preached in churches.

But, I think the real bullet to the brain is 1 John 3:7 which says...Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Ouch, it is gonna be real hot in the hot tub! Revelation 20:10

Wow EB, Have I ever said in all the years you have been on this forum, that there was nothing a Christian had to do? I hesitate to point a finger at you and say you are sounding like many others I have heard condemn a person or group because they don't see things just like you. It is beyond Acts 2:38, it goes to so called standards of holiness. It goes to condemning people because they do not have the clear understanding of the Godhead like oneness think they do.

In a nutshell, I am so tired of the only ness of oneness. The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the holy ghost, not some five step program like AA. It is not how one gets into the kingdom as much as how one lives when they get into the kingdom. Don't let that last sentence get you frothing at the mouth, I did not say you could get into the kingdom any old way, but neither did I say it takes a five step program either.

It is Not What one does to get into the kingdom, it is what one does after he/she is in the kingdom. From my point of view the difference between three steppers and one steppers is the point when one becomes part of the kingdom of God.

We are judged on what we know, not what we don't know. If entrance into heaven is based on justification by works then we are all lost, because we cannot agree on what those works are.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Wow EB, Have I ever said in all the years you have been on this forum, that there was nothing a Christian had to do? I hesitate to point a finger at you and say you are sounding like many others I have heard condemn a person or group because they don't see things just like you. It is beyond Acts 2:38, it goes to so called standards of holiness. It goes to condemning people because they do not have the clear understanding of the Godhead like oneness think they do.

In a nutshell, I am so tired of the only ness of oneness. The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the holy ghost, not some five step program like AA. It is not how one gets into the kingdom as much as how one lives when they get into the kingdom. Don't let that last sentence get you frothing at the mouth, I did not say you could get into the kingdom any old way, but neither did I say it takes a five step program either.

It is Not What one does to get into the kingdom, it is what one does after he/she is in the kingdom. From my point of view the difference between three steppers and one steppers is the point when one becomes part of the kingdom of God.

We are judged on what we know, not what we don't know. If entrance into heaven is based on justification by works then we are all lost, because we cannot agree on what those works are.

If we are judged on knowledge and not action, then blessed are the dumb?

The Bible says all will be judged according to their works. Is that up for debate? Really?

The way you are talking, the Bible is useless, the apostles wasted their time teaching, all because people can't agree on things?

That doesn't even make sense.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Wow EB, Have I ever said in all the years you have been on this forum, that there was nothing a Christian had to do? I hesitate to point a finger at you and say you are sounding like many others I have heard condemn a person or group because they don't see things just like you.

Haha this is funny, mind you I'm not laughing at you, but I'm laughing at the knee jerk response. While Jesus paid it all we still need to do our part. Like Esaias said, we are judged by our works. A tree is known by Jesus when He inspects the fruit it bears.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

It is beyond Acts 2:38, it goes to so called standards of holiness. It goes to condemning people because they do not have the clear understanding of the Godhead like oneness think they do.

My dear brother, sad to say but another Jesus, another gospel, and a full serving of anathema right in the kisser. If nothing is wrong, then obviously nothing is right. Roman Catholics to Moses Berg's Children of God, it's all a hobo stew, mish mashed together with Branch Davidians sprinkled on top.

Preach? Bible study? For what? It's not about what we don't know? Then why did Jesus Christ open up the understanding of the scriptures to His apostles Luke 24:45? Go ye therefore preach teach and baptize? Brother Loren I appreciate our friendship, but I just don't see how 3/4s of the Bible is merely suggestions? Or as my buddy the Greek Orthodox priest once told me, (while he was hotter then the back of a Texan's neck in August,) "Mainstream Christians use the Bible like a magic book!"

Jesus rebukes His students with these words "are you yet without understanding?" Bro, if it wasn't about understanding this? Then, what's up with Jesus rebuking His disciples? The Bible isn't some cryptic tome. One that is not only a maze of manic mystery. But one that warns you if you get it wrong you are erased out of the Book of Life? Oh come on already!

I believe it is Postmodernism which has replaced Christianity. Hey, that's what turned me off to Christianity when I was a kid. Christians didn't have a clue how their religion worked. While dying and having a Christian telling me all I needed to do was believe and say a sinner's prayer? Believe what? They said, "Jesus came to save us from our sins" I would reply, "then why is He only talking to Jews, and telling his preachers not to go to non Jews?" the woman who tried to enlighten me when I was very young look like the old lady from Unarius Academy of Science. Had the same spacey look, and voice. Hey, I had questions, she had little to no answers. My atheist father was constantly making comments about Christianity, the Bible, God, but when he would have a Christian speak to him his eyes would roll over white. I wish I could speak with him now, but he's gone.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

In a nutshell, I am so tired of the only ness of oneness.

Bro, that's just the way it is, people are going to gravitate to Only-ness. In religion, in sports, in foods, in politics, in car makes, and motorcycle brands.
Sorry, but utopia is only a made up word, while you are here with the rest of us you are going to deal with the me, myself, and I, us four and no more. John Wycliffe dealt with a world where people only learned about God from passion plays, and festival plays. Priests knew less then their parishioners, telling people old pagan wives' tales. Yet, people wanted to KNOW more about God. John Wycliffe wanted the English farmer to know more. William Tyndale was quoted to say "I will cause a boy who drives a plow to know more of the scriptures than the pope." What was with these people? Be apt to teach? Why? If doesn't matter what you don't know? Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers for building the church so they can minister? So they can keep it going.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the holy ghost,

Yet four chapters before you get Romans 14:17 you have

But how can anyone call on Jesus Christ if they have not trusted in Him? How can they trust in Him if they have not understood His message? How can they hear if no one explains it? Kingdom of God? Oh, isn't that where all the roads are made of gold, and Jesus is building us mansions?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

not some five step program like AA.

Bro, you sound like CNN talking about people who voted for Trump.
We miss the Cross, we miss the Christ, and we definitely miss the Church when we think of everything as how little can I do, give me the bare minimum, so I can still get in? This has to be viewed holistically, don't fragmentally.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

It is not how one gets into the kingdom as much as how one lives when they get into the kingdom.

Bro, how do you know how anything is done? If it isn't about what anyone knows or doesn't know, then it doesn't matter? You telling anyone it isn't how it's done, can only get you the look with a raised eyebrow. the minute you state you know something for sure puts you in the place of authority. You are the expert, therefore now you can say what is wrong and what is right. Now you have Loren Only-ness?

Because Apostolic Joe has it all wrong, but Loren has it right? You can't see this?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Don't let that last sentence get you frothing at the mouth, I did not say you could get into the kingdom any old way, but neither did I say it takes a five step program either.

No froth, just pleasantly watching a double standard.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

It is Not What one does to get into the kingdom, it is what one does after he/she is in the kingdom.

But you still have to do something, you have to trust in the invisible.
You have to teach them about the invisible, and you have to show them the book about the invisible.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

From my point of view the difference between three steppers and one steppers is the point when one becomes part of the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:3 and 1 John 3:7 are pretty sobering. You know how three steppers were labeled three steppers? By their critics the so called one steppers. This is because man can't see anything but rules and regulations. How many things must I do to be saved? Or, I've been a follower of God since my youth, keeping all the commands of Moses, what lack I yet? Jesus didn't talk about steps, He spoke about sacrifice. No one can come to Jesus and continue to live for Jesus while they are still...holding on to stuff.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

We are judged on what we know, not what we don't know.

So, how little can you know and still call it good?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

If entrance into heaven is based on justification by works then we are all lost, because we cannot agree on what those works are.

Loren you are truly my friend, I appreciate you, and appreciate your prayers for my family and I. But, I think you should reconsider your above quote in the light of scripture.

Sorry but Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

Walk in the light as He is in the light? Or putting on the mind of Christ? Which may just have you place a Pharisee or Sadducee on blast? But then everything which doesn't eat your brand of cornflakes might end up with those labels.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, if Jesus was baptized, then we are baptized? If Jesus was crucified then we are crucified? If Jesus was buried then we were buried? If Jesus was resurrected then we are resurrected?

You don't believe that, because that isn't what the Bible means by crucified with Him, or seated with Him in heavenly places. Because you aren't God, like Jesus is God. I'll tell you a story about an individual who is in prison who believed the what I just described.

I am waiting for the story!

[Godsdrummer]

So you brought this up, so I will address just this for time sake.

My dear brother, sad to say but another Jesus, another gospel, and a full serving of anathema right in the kisser. If nothing is wrong, then obviously nothing is right. Roman Catholics to Moses Berg's Children of God, it's all a hobo stew, mish mashed together with Branch Davidians sprinkled on top.

Preach? Bible study? For what? It's not about what we don't know? Then why did Jesus Christ open up the understanding of the scriptures to His apostles Luke 24:45? Go ye therefore preach teach and baptize? Brother Loren I appreciate our friendship, but I just don't see how 3/4s of the Bible is merely suggestions? Or as my buddy the Greek Orthodox priest once told me, (while he was hotter then the back of a Texan's neck in August,) "Mainstream Christians use the Bible like a magic book!"

Jesus rebukes His students with these words "are you yet without understanding?" Bro, if it wasn't about understanding this? Then, what's up with Jesus rebuking His disciples? The Bible isn't some cryptic tome. One that is not only a maze of manic mystery. But one that warns you if you get it wrong you are erased out of the Book of Life? Oh come on already!

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

First off let me be frank, you quote from scripture to make one point but the point you make is not the meaning of the scripture you quote. Just what did they not understand from the scriptures? That the scriptures spoke of him, and that he must die and rise the third day. That repentance and remission of sins will be heralded among all nations.
This was not a command, this is a declaration by Christ to his disciples of what they were about to witness. And what they would be a part of, declaring remission of sins was available through belief in the Name of Christ.

You ask if 2/3 of the bible is wrong? Of course not. The problem is that man has taken the bible as a whole instead of individual letters first. I believe that within each letter or book is contained all a person needs. One must remember for almost 1000 years the common people were lucky to have a tidbit of what we call the bible today. There salvation was not based on what they knew or what steps they achieved to be saved, there salvation was based on belief in the cross and Christ. And the way they treated their fellow man.

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

So you brought this up, so I will address just this for time sake.




Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

First off let me be frank, you quote from scripture to make one point but the point you make is not the meaning of the scripture you quote. Just what did they not understand from the scriptures? That the scriptures spoke of him, and that he must die and rise the third day. That repentance and remission of sins will be heralded among all nations.
This was not a command, this is a declaration by Christ to his disciples of what they were about to witness. And what they would be a part of, declaring remission of sins was available through belief in the Name of Christ.

You ask if 2/3 of the bible is wrong? Of course not. The problem is that man has taken the bible as a whole instead of individual letters first. I believe that within each letter or book is contained all a person needs. One must remember for almost 1000 years the common people were lucky to have a tidbit of what we call the bible today. There salvation was not based on what they knew or what steps they achieved to be saved, there salvation was based on belief in the cross and Christ. And the way they treated their fellow man.

So none of the Bible is wrong....but the majority is unnecessary?