Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

[shag]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Bro Blume

I truly see and understand what you are saying See I work things out with time and don't jump on any wagon right away I studied Daniels 70 weeks for 2-3 years before I totaly mad the change in my heart and mind. Of course when I saw that the 70 weeks had to be fulfilled in intirely at Christ time that changed the way I look at Rev. and the prophecy's in the Gospels. Now I am working through the sematics of the resurection. There are many variables that I see at this point.
The psalms speaks of this body going back to the dust whence it came from, I think there is another passage also in OT.

I see the passaged we are speaking of in Thess and Cor. as Paul speaking ov comfort to the church as to whether we will rise again and as you so eliquitly said to comfort the church concering those aready dead in Christ.

Although as I started to say this morning Paul does not acctualy say when those alive and remain are caught up. I was going to say we are caught up individualy when we die but of course I realized that brings into bear several other factors that do not line up with the word so as I said I will continue to study and pray and meditate on the word.
As a final thought In the last 20 years I study in prayer in God to find the meaning from God, and your bottom line says many study to prove what they teach, well I study to find the will of God. I know in whom my salvation lies there fore with that secure I have no problem throwing traditiion out the window when I see the light of the word of God. My discusions with others mainly confirms what I have aready found. I might add that reading the forum has helped me on a few occasions to clearify some thoughts And I thank you and others that have responded on this forum.

Good words Brother! I like it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Bro Blume

I truly see and understand what you are saying See I work things out with time and don't jump on any wagon right away I studied Daniels 70 weeks for 2-3 years before I totaly mad the change in my heart and mind. Of course when I saw that the 70 weeks had to be fulfilled in intirely at Christ time that changed the way I look at Rev. and the prophecy's in the Gospels. Now I am working through the sematics of the resurection. There are many variables that I see at this point.
The psalms speaks of this body going back to the dust whence it came from, I think there is another passage also in OT.

I see the passaged we are speaking of in Thess and Cor. as Paul speaking ov comfort to the church as to whether we will rise again and as you so eliquitly said to comfort the church concering those aready dead in Christ.

Although as I started to say this morning Paul does not acctualy say when those alive and remain are caught up. I was going to say we are caught up individualy when we die but of course I realized that brings into bear several other factors that do not line up with the word so as I said I will continue to study and pray and meditate on the word.

As a final thought In the last 20 years I study in prayer in God to find the meaning from God, and your bottom line says many study to prove what they teach, well I study to find the will of God. I know in whom my salvation lies there fore with that secure I have no problem throwing traditiion out the window when I see the light of the word of God. My discusions with others mainly confirms what I have aready found. I might add that reading the forum has helped me on a few occasions to clearify some thoughts And I thank you and others that have responded on this forum.

Amen. The MAIN THING is to be willing to disregard traditions if we find the word conflicts with them, instead of twisting the word in our minds to retain our traditions. And that is what you are willing to do. Praise God!

The self life is so tenacious that it can fool itself and actually make itself believe a lie to keep itself alive and from admitting it was wrong. It's amazing how much that occurs in the realms of religion.

I think too many people jumped the gun when they started seeing holes in futurism, and did not take more time and scan over more scripture before making a leap. I think that is where fp's erred. I recommend everyone take this slow. I doubt anyone would have accepted fp if they realized it implied no end to sin, satan and the death, which means the cross is weaker than one thought in not being able to undo what Adam brought into the world. But once fp's make the plunge, they tend to not want to admit error and start looking for reasons why there need be no end of satan and sin and death in the world. They start doing what my motto says -- not reading to understand what the bible says but approaching the bible to find what they now believe.

The bottom line is the place of the cross and how much it accomplishes. Whereas I agree with fp's that satan, sin and death are finished with the believer upon salvation, I ALSO BELIEVE something they do not beyond that. The cross ALSO made a way for satan and sin and death to one day no longer exist in earth whatosever. When the cross is diminished in its effectiveness, something is awry. Paul said God is able to above and beyond what our imaginations and minds can conceive. And I can conceive a lot more victory than fp allows for the cross.

[mfblume]

I found where somehow some of my post was deleted while editing it to begin with, when I wrote about dispensationalism and the issue of inheriting the promises of Abraham.

Let me post it again after it has been corrected:

Dispensationalism lays great stress on alleged unfulfilled promises of the Abrahamic covenant and insists that the lawful heirs of these promises are the physical descendants of the faithful patriarch, regardless of their own faithlessness and rebellion against God.

However, just as the true heirs of a dead man's last will and testament are identified only by a careful examination and strict adherence to the demands of the document, so too are the heirs of the Abrahamic promises identified.

The Old Testament itself proposes that the unbelieving Jews are cut off from any covenantal relationship with Abraham in speaking of their disobedience to God. This occurred in the First Century when they rejected Christ. This cutting off disallows them to have any claim to the benefits thereof until they come to faith in Christ and are grafted back into the "Israel of God" as it is now manifested to the world in the Christian Church. Creating a new covenant for them outside Grace is simply not the answer, and is no where claimed to be the answer.

[mfblume]

The church was intended by God to be the natural progression for Israel that God intended after Law passed away when Jesus came and died. This nullifies the Disp thought that God blinded Israel until the church is raptured away, and that the church is overlooked in the OT prophets. I see the church everywhere in the OT prophets.

Since Gal 3 teaches that the promises were only made to Abraham and his Seed, which is Christ, not to anybody else, and since those baptized into Christ are then made Abraham's seed, then only in the church are any promises to Israel available to be fulfilled.

Galatians 3:16 KJV Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:23-29 KJV But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I am unsure of how Romans 11 works for Israel.

Romans 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I know that Ezekiel 18 teaches that God does not judge anyone for their parents' sins, and we read that God blinded Israel in the first century for rejecting Christ.

Ezekiel 18:1-9 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (5) But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, (6) And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, (7) And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; (8) He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, (9) Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

To me, it can only mean that judgment was only on the people of that generation in Christ's day. So, since Romans 11 was written while that generation still lived, we understand it was still a future thing for the salvation for Israel to occur. And the influx of Jews into the church would occur after that generation passed away with the first century judgment. This might mean only after the generation who sinned passed away that all Israel is open for salvation. Before this point, only the remnant were saved, including Paul and the others. But after this point it seems salvation is simply OPENED to all Israel.

And when we read Romans 10, we read Israel must obey the word of truth that Paul preached. Connect that with Deut 30 and Gal 3, and it seems to show that the promise for regathering to the land can only occur if they obey THE WORD of faith Paul preached.

Romans 10:8-9 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Deuteronomy 30:1-3 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 KJV (11) For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. (12) It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (13) Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Furthermore, regarding the land, Abraham looked for a greater land than the middle east in which he dwelt.

Hebrews 11:14-16 KJV For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. (15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. (16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

And Heb 12:22 says the church is the Heavenly Jerusalem! A better country.

Hebrews 12:22 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

So I see no future promise for Israel other than what is inside the church. The church is called Heavenly Jerusalem and Mount Zion. Everything literally on the earth in the sense of a nation and country, like Israel, Zion and Jerusalem, is applied to the church in the New Testament. I feel this is trying to tell us that the land was only a type and shadow of the reality that is the church. And I think it may be a carnalizing of these things that causes disp teachings to cling to a physical version alone.

After all, it seems the reference below is towards a principle that the natural comes first and then the spiritual. Instead of simply saying the natural Adam and body comes before the spiritual Adam and body, Paul spoke a sort of principle of natural coming before the spiritual that seems to be precisely the case with Israel and Zion and Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 15:46 KJV (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am unsure of how Romans 11 works for Israel.

Romans 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

If blindness in part is come to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, what does this mean for Gentiles after the 1st century?

I also think it is interesting to note that Paul refers to the Gentiles and Israel not as a single unit here but distinctively, which seems to be set apart from the Church which doesn't have that distinction.

[Sam]

Isn't humanity divided into three categories as far as God is concerned?
Jews
Gentiles
Church of God
ref 1 Cor 10:32

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

Isn't humanity divided into three categories as far as God is concerned?
Jews
Gentiles
Church of God
ref 1 Cor 10:32

Yes, but Jews and Gentiles who are not in the church are all one category in themselves... lost and in need of the church.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

If blindness in part is come to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, what does this mean for Gentiles after the 1st century?

Then Gentile sand Jews BOTH enjoy the church.

It seems that since God blinded the Jews in the first century, that the church was an outreach to Gentiles. Now, Paul, in that first century day, sought to see Jews saved, and we see that by his words about provoking Israel to jealousy by reaching to Gentiles. However, the day was a gentile day since Israel was blinded.

And note that FULLNESS is already mentioned in this chapter earlier.

Romans 11:12 KJV Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

What is its use in this verse above?

I also think it is interesting to note that Paul refers to the Gentiles and Israel not as a single unit here but distinctively, which seems to be set apart from the Church which doesn't have that distinction.

Since Israel was blinded but for a remnant, then Paul would do that, wouldn't he.

I think Galatians 3 really makes this all plain.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Then Gentile sand Jews BOTH enjoy the church.

It seems that since God blinded the Jews in the first century, that the church was an outreach to Gentiles. Now, Paul, in that first century day, sought to see Jews saved, and we see that by his words about provoking Israel to jealousy by reaching to Gentiles. However, the day was a gentile day since Israel was blinded.

And note that FULLNESS is already mentioned in this chapter earlier.

Romans 11:12 KJV Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

What is its use in this verse above?



Since Israel was blinded but for a remnant, then Paul would do that, wouldn't he.

I think Galatians 3 really makes this all plain.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

"Their" would seem to refer to the Jews, and seems to be an idea of rich v. poor with riches being referd to as fulness.

"until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" seems to indicate completeness. If it is full there is no more room.

definition - To a complete extent; entirely

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

"Their" would seem to refer to the Jews, and seems to be an idea of rich v. poor with riches being referd to as fulness.

"until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" seems to indicate completeness. If it is full there is no more room.

definition - To a complete extent; entirely

Would not fullness of gentiles refer to their exclusive enjoyment of the church while Jews were blinded?

But if this is speaking of an end of gentile inclusion into anything to do with God, whether it be through church that is removed at that point, or something else, it is doing so in such a vague fashion that there would have to be far more clearer words to that effect than what we have here. This seems to indicate it cannot be the case.

For centuries people felt this was when a great revival of gentiles would occur after which, and through their inclusion's help, the Jews would come into the church en masse.

But that violates Ezekiel 18's words about God not punishing children for their ancestors' sakes, as Rom 11 speaks of Israel blinded.