Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology

[mfblume]

I am seeing more of who dispensationalism differs from kingdom prophecy. Disp depends upon things the apostles never taught nor preached, like a revived Israelite Temple and Kingdom under God, and a time when Israel will come to God after the church is removed. It interprets OT prophecies in ways the NT writers never did nor said anything about.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am seeing more of who dispensationalism differs from kingdom prophecy. Disp depends upon things the apostles never taught nor preached, like a revived Israelite Temple and Kingdom under God, and a time when Israel will come to God after the church is removed. It interprets OT prophecies in ways the NT writers never did nor said anything about.

Bro Blume

I to am of the same opinion about disp. and that they interpret OT Prophecy in ways NT writers never did. I know we don't agree on everything I seem to be leaning for toword a fp view in that I see the rapture as already happening and that we gor directly to heaven when we die. But I am still studing. It seems the more I see and hear different veiws and arguments from Disp. teachers the more I am firm on my beliefs on PP or FP. Dispensationism just does not make any sence to me and it never did. There was always a quetion in my mind whever I heard it preached or taught.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Bro Blume

I to am of the same opinion about disp. and that they interpret OT Prophecy in ways NT writers never did. I know we don't agree on everything I seem to be leaning for toword a fp view in that I see the rapture as already happening and that we gor directly to heaven when we die. But I am still studing. It seems the more I see and hear different veiws and arguments from Disp. teachers the more I am firm on my beliefs on PP or FP. Dispensationism just does not make any sence to me and it never did. There was always a quetion in my mind whever I heard it preached or taught.

Dispensationalism is basically a joke to me now. No one would arrive as such conclusions had they been left alone without any influence beforehand, except for the crackpot who first invented it. But first inventing something is similar to coming to any crazy conclusion about things. We can all do that if we wanted to. But that one simply caught on.

You will find, as I did, the more you look at full preterism, you realize there are ramifications that simply are not sound. If FP is true, and Revelation is totally fulfilled then satan will never be removed from this earth to influence it, and sinners will never cease to be born, and sin will never be removed from the earth.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Dispensationalism is basically a joke to me now. No one would arrive as such conclusions had they been left alone without any influence beforehand, except for the crackpot who first invented it. But first inventing something is similar to coming to any crazy conclusion about things. We can all do that if we wanted to. But that one simply caught on.

You will find, as I did, the more you look at full preterism, you realize there are ramifications that simply are not sound. If FP is true, and Revelation is totally fulfilled then satan will never be removed from this earth to influence it, and sinners will never cease to be born, and sin will never be removed from the earth.

As I say the view I have right now take some of what fp say and pp and kind of work then together. If one see the kingdom of God on earth right now that Jesus has completed the work he set out to do in heaven and has given us the power to change things here on earth Satan has been bound in a sence he has no power other than what we allow him, then is it not concevable to bring to earth the fulfillement of all scripture with out Jesus coming to earth? Long sentance I know lol It is my contention that when we realize our identity of who we are in Christ and and influince the world the church can change our world and bring the full kingdom of God to earth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

As I say the view I have right now take some of what fp say and pp and kind of work then together. If one see the kingdom of God on earth right now that Jesus has completed the work he set out to do in heaven and has given us the power to change things here on earth Satan has been bound in a sence he has no power other than what we allow him, then is it not concevable to bring to earth the fulfillement of all scripture with out Jesus coming to earth?

Hi GD,

More thoughts for your consideration as you make your way through choices of prophetic scehemes of interpretation...

It is not that Jesus is coming to earth, but rather Jesus is rapturing the church in order for us to obtain immortal bodies since death came by sin and the grave was not mentioned until the curses were made in the Garden. So His coming is not for the sake of enhancing the present spiritual Kingdom. The kingdom will always be spiritual. But it's just that satan must be judged finally as well as sin and death since Adam brought these influences over mankind. The cross has to undo that or else Adam's sin was greater than Jesus' remedy, and that cannot be according to Romans 5.

I fully believe the resurrection and change of the actual physical body is far too plainly indicated in 1 Cor 15 and Phil 3:21 for us to conclude otherwise.

Check out my studies here that contrast what I believe is the error of fp from pp:

http://mikeblume.com/partvfull.htm
http://mikeblume.com/mat24res.htm
http://mikeblume.com/physres.htm
http://mikeblume.com/70adres.htm

And fp's have not been able to answer my questions as follows:

1) Why the personal plural pronouns in Phil 3:20 are limited to the church, showing that the same must be held for that used in verse 21. (Phil 3:21 shows how the same physical changes that happened to Jesus' body in the resurrection will occur with our own physical body, proving the resurrection is physical indeed).

Regarding No. 1, I asked how fp's could insist OUR VILE BODY refers to those of the church AND other people to whom Paul formerly belonged, namely unsaved Israel, since this is the claim they gave for the explanation of Phil 3:21. However, verse 20 limits the personal plural pronouns in context of verses 20 and 21 to the saved people. The reason I referred to the limitation of verse 20 pronouns to saved people is that this shows who is referred to as "OUR" in verse 21 -- ONLY saved people. This disproves fp thought, I believe. And since they are saved people whom Paul speaks of in verse 21, and nothing referred to as a body concerning saved people was "vile" except their mortal physical bodies, OUR VILE BODY cannot refer to anything but the physical body.

Fp's responded generally about Phil 3:21 but not to the particular argument about the personal plural pronouns used in verse 20 and 21 in response to their arguments. The argument stopped with me making this particular point. We discussed Phil 3:21 until I asked them about the personal plural pronouns continuity in verse 20 to 21 and it stopped there with no more responses from them.

2) How the BODY is a container in 2 Cor 5, and that saying the spiritual body is not physical and thereby lose its containing function.

3) Why can we be absent from the body with the Lord if when we physically die we HAVE A SPIRITUAL BODY

3) What Romans 8 means about the creation groans waiting for the redemption of our bodies when sons of God are manifested.

4) Why Jesus "dieth no more, death has no more dominion over Him," in Romans 6 if He has no physical body that can die.

5) Why Romans 6 answers the issue of death in Romans 5 that Adam brought into the world by His sin by having Jesus physically die.

The resurrection of the sinner and saint occur at the same point in time but are two phases in that same time.

1st RESURRECTION IS SALVATION:

John 5:24-29 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

2nd PHYSICAL BODY RESURRECTION

(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves [NOT SOME] shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is not a resurrection as FP teaches from graves where the physical body remains in the grave. If we die, our souls leave the body before the body is in the grave. So how could the resurrection be FROM THE GRAVE if the buried physical body is not raised?

Something to consider as well.

Long sentance I know lol It is my contention that when we realize our identity of who we are in Christ and and influince the world the church can change our world and bring the full kingdom of God to earth.

Exactly! I just preached on that last night here at the church.


God bless in your research and study!

[mfblume]

GD,

We're getting a load of books and DVDs here at Rightly Dividing the Word ministries for sale that expose the error of dispensationalism. We have a couple right now that you can get at http://rightlydividingtheword.com/Default.htm

[Godsdrummer]

[QUOTE=mfblume;759909]Hi GD,

More thoughts for your consideration as you make your way through choices of prophetic scehemes of interpretation...

It is not that Jesus is coming to earth, but rather Jesus is rapturing the church in order for us to obtain immortal bodies since death came by sin and the grave was not mentioned until the curses were made in the Garden. So His coming is not for the sake of enhancing the present spiritual Kingdom. The kingdom will always be spiritual. But it's just that satan must be judged finally as well as sin and death since Adam brought these influences over mankind. The cross has to undo that or else Adam's sin was greater than Jesus' remedy, and that cannot be according to Romans 5.

I fully believe the resurrection and change of the actual physical body is far too plainly indicated in 1 Cor 15 and Phil 3:21 for us to conclude otherwise.


Just a thought because I am writting this in the morninig before work will write more this evining. First I do not beleive in just a spiritual resurection. I beleive in a full change of body when we die. Just a couple of thoughts as I make my way through the schemes of interpretation. I brake the rules. lol my mind has gotten beyond the norm where I only see what others say but I have gotten to a point where I can look down and see the overal picturenot just in prophecy. Many of the things you preach or teach about standards God gave me a couple of years ago before I read your study on RDTT. See in the circles I live in when I state some of the beleifs God has shown me I have been put through many differance of opinions, I even has someone tell my what I was saying was herisy.

Sorry I get to rambling sometimes. Old Age lol What I was saying Is I see fp in this light that the resurection has happened in 70 ad. God came to earth in judgement preached to those in death hell and the grave those that heard his voice were saved those that did not were cast into the lake of fire. Hence the second resurection. Hence forth when we die our bodies are changed we go strait to heaven no in between time. See I see the last of chapter 19 and the first of chapter 20 of Revelation as the work of the true church that is in the earth today. and when we fulfill all of the work God has given us then the kingdom of God which is in heaven now will be in the world.

Here is a thought I Thess 4 our primary passage for a rapture Paul is speaking of the dead those that have aready gone on Paul is giving comfert to the living that the dead in Christ will rise first so we don't have to give them a second thought. Then we which are alive shall be caught up to meet them in the air. But when? Bro this has just given me more questions I have to pray about I will get bac to you

God Bless

[mfblume]

MORE DISP. VS. COVENANT THEOLOGY thoughts.

Dispensationalism lays great stress on the so-called unfulfilled promises of the Abrahamic covenant and insists that the lawful heirs of these promises are the physical descendants of the faithful patriarch, regardless of their own faithlessness and rebellion against God. Just as the true heirs of a dead man's last will and testament are identified only by a careful examination and strict adherence to the demands of the document, so too are the heirs of the Abrahamic promises identified.

The Old Testament itself that the unbelieving Jews were cut off from any covenantal relationship with Abraham in the First Century and therefore have no claim whatsoever to the benefits thereof until they come to faith in Christ and are grafted back into the "Israel of God" as it is now manifested to the world in the Christian Church.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Just a thought because I am writting this in the morninig before work will write more this evining. First I do not beleive in just a spiritual resurection. I beleive in a full change of body when we die. Just a couple of thoughts as I make my way through the schemes of interpretation. I brake the rules. lol my mind has gotten beyond the norm where I only see what others say but I have gotten to a point where I can look down and see the overal picture not just in prophecy. Many of the things you preach or teach about standards God gave me a couple of years ago before I read your study on RDTT. See in the circles I live in when I state some of the beleifs God has shown me I have been put through many differance of opinions, I even has someone tell my what I was saying was herisy.

Sorry I get to rambling sometimes. Old Age lol What I was saying Is I see fp in this light that the resurection has happened in 70 ad. God came to earth in judgement preached to those in death hell and the grave those that heard his voice were saved those that did not were cast into the lake of fire. Hence the second resurection. Hence forth when we die our bodies are changed we go strait to heaven no in between time. See I see the last of chapter 19 and the first of chapter 20 of Revelation as the work of the true church that is in the earth today. and when we fulfill all of the work God has given us then the kingdom of God which is in heaven now will be in the world.

Yes, we are at the end of Rev 19 and the start of Rev 20. Amen.

We're all just considering various views, so ramble away! It's good. lol

Presently I see Peter's words that spoke of speaking to spirits in prison as being in the past tense in Peter's words, which would be before AD70.

I cannot honestly see a resurrection in AD70 at all, though. But anyway...

Here is a thought I Thess 4 our primary passage for a rapture Paul is speaking of the dead those that have aready gone on Paul is giving comfert to the living that the dead in Christ will rise first so we don't have to give them a second thought.

Just an additional thought. I looked for the reason Paul wrote about this. And it seems no one knew anything about a rapture in this church, so Paul was not telling them they need not fear the rapture already occurred. They knew nothing about a rapture before this chapter was given to them.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 KJV (13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

One man once asked why Paul would tell them the rapture had not yet occurred, so they need not fear, when in fact that was not the reason for the letter. Obviously if they knew the rapture woudl remove their feet from the ground, then if they were still there they knew it had not happened yet. We know that was not the reason. But the reason was they had to know what happened to the dead saints. Did they perish? Is there no nope beyond the grave? The dead were still in the graves, so we know this is speaking about their bodies as well. Their spirits went to be with the Lord. Everyone knew that. But something about their bodies being in graves.

And if the fp spirit "body" leaves the physical body at death, no one can allegedly see that anyway. So before or after AD70, when the fp res. supposedly occurred, what would comfort the Thessalonians since the fp res. cannot be seen. They would still know the bodies were in the graves. This was the issue in 1 Thess 4.

So, Paul is saying the dead will rise physically, and they need not wonder about why the dead bodies are in graves, having seen nothing occur.

Anyway... let's continue.

Then we which are alive shall be caught up to meet them in the air. But when? Bro this has just given me more questions I have to pray about I will get bac to you

God Bless

It has to be connected with 1 Cor 15, for the same note of the dead experiencing the same thing the living experience is found there, too. And when we go there, we find Christ ceases to rule As SON at the resurrection (1 Cor 15:23-28). Christ still rules. We know that. And verses 5-56 in 1 Cor 15 show that the physical body must change because it presently cannot inherit the kingdom. There is NO CHANGE in fp, since the physical body remains in the ground and something else is considered the body. Some say the CHANGE is from a state of sleep to wakedness.That is not the subject of the chapter, though. The theme is WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME? verse 35.

And that has not happened yet. Yes, we go to be with the Lord when we die, but the body will also catch up with us and be made new just as the soul and spirit were made knew beforehand.

Interesting stuff!

[Godsdrummer]

Bro Blume

I truly see and understand what you are saying See I work things out with time and don't jump on any wagon right away I studied Daniels 70 weeks for 2-3 years before I totaly mad the change in my heart and mind. Of course when I saw that the 70 weeks had to be fulfilled in intirely at Christ time that changed the way I look at Rev. and the prophecy's in the Gospels. Now I am working through the sematics of the resurection. There are many variables that I see at this point.
The psalms speaks of this body going back to the dust whence it came from, I think there is another passage also in OT.

I see the passaged we are speaking of in Thess and Cor. as Paul speaking ov comfort to the church as to whether we will rise again and as you so eliquitly said to comfort the church concering those aready dead in Christ.

Although as I started to say this morning Paul does not acctualy say when those alive and remain are caught up. I was going to say we are caught up individualy when we die but of course I realized that brings into bear several other factors that do not line up with the word so as I said I will continue to study and pray and meditate on the word.

As a final thought In the last 20 years I study in prayer in God to find the meaning from God, and your bottom line says many study to prove what they teach, well I study to find the will of God. I know in whom my salvation lies there fore with that secure I have no problem throwing traditiion out the window when I see the light of the word of God. My discusions with others mainly confirms what I have aready found. I might add that reading the forum has helped me on a few occasions to clearify some thoughts And I thank you and others that have responded on this forum.