Do You Believe in Predetermination?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

You do not believe in the permissive will of God?

If there is no permissive will, couldn't we say that God creates evil and makes people sin? He makes the devil tempt, murderers murder, and so on?

Rhetorical question, as I know you don't believe that my friend!

You are currently on the path that leads to understanding that God, not man is the FIRST CAUSE. Everything and I mean everthing flows from Him. The fall was not Plan B, it was God's plan A. God is the creator and He placed everthing that is, in His creation. All that has come to pass is by design, neither the wimpy efforts of Satan, nor the so call "freewill" of man will thwart His total victory. He will redeem the whole creation, sin and death will be destroyed, but GOD'S creation will be made whole. His whole creation will worship Him. "...every knee and every mouth..."

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Do you agree with the following statement?

You asked if I agree with the following:

"It is almost universally admitted that God determines when, where, and under what circumstances, each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black, wise or foolish. God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own. To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, statesmanship, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness. Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel; others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others are left to perish in unbelief."

I agree that God does indeed determine when, where, and under what circumstances each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black. Whether they will be wise or unwise, I disagree that God determines this because Proverbs encourages us to get wisdom. I agree that "God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own."

As for "To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, statesmanship, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness," I don't believe that it is God that does this - at least as far as giving some riches and honor and others poverty and dishonor. Jesus said that God allows rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike.

As for the last statement, "Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel; others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others are left to perish in unbelief," merely being in a "Christian" land (there really is no such thing, salvation is given to people, not nations) doesn't mean one is going to benefit from the gospel. Living in a land of "darkness and heathenism" doesn't mean someone isn't going to ever hear and obey the gospel. Now, it is true that God does bring some to faith unto salvation and that He leaves others to perish in unbelief; but notice the statement said "leaves others to perish." This simply means that God chooses not to draw them to Himself. It is an evil heart that interprets this as meaning God says to someone who wants to be saved, "No, I don't want you to be saved." No one, on his own, ever wants to be saved. If God did not interfere with the will of some people (causing them to want to be saved), no one would ever be saved.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

The issue can get quite confusing.

Is it predestined that a person will be born in total spiritual darkness?

Every human is born in spiritual darkness.

Originally Posted by crakjak

Question? If God determines all the things that were listed before the last two sentences (and He does), don't you think those things influence the last two sentences? (and it does)

If so you must believe in Calvinism or in Universalism. Either God determines some to life and some to destruction or He will eventually bring every individual to full disclosure of His truth of which they cannot resist His love. I simply believe the latter.

No. Just because God predestines some to life does not mean He predestines everyone else to death. Everyone is BORN spiritually dead and will NEVER want God if left to ourselves. Everyone would remain spiritually dead if God did not interfere in the lives of some in order to bring them to life.

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

Thanks Pastor...

When I meet the Lord Jesus in Glory at the marriage supper.

I will ask him.

"So you choose before the Foundation of the World to Die on the Cross?"

You knew you could fool the Devil your fallen companion.

You then allow some of our human sons and daughters to be born predestined to be lost to this hell.

You allow us to understand and call Abortion of a Human life ...Murder.

Yet we are to believe fear not him that killeth the body but he that killeth the soul....

What are we to think of this "Soul Abortion".

Lets call it what it is saints.

Predestination and you can say the quote came from, Nathan Eckstadt.

Predestination is "Soul Abortion".

That is simply not practiced by our Blood stained Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty.

PREDESTINATION IS NOT GOD PREDESTINING PEOPLE TO GO TO HELL!!!!

EVERYONE IS BORN GOING TO HELL AND, IF LEFT ALONE, THEY WILL SURELY GO THERE. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF GOD BUT BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN THAT IS IMPUTED TO HIS PROGENY.

PREDESTINATION IS GOD HAVING CHOSEN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD TO INTERFERE WITH THE WILL OF SOME HUMANS IN ORDER TO SAVE THEM. GOD'S CHOICE TO LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE TO THEIR NATURAL STATE IS NOT GOD PREVENTING ANYONE FROM BEING SAVED. GOD DOES NOT PREVENT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE SAVED FROM BEING SAVED - ONLY THOSE WITH WHOSE WILL GOD SPECIFICALLY INTERFERES WANT TO BE SAVED.

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Would you clarify the above for me? Are you stating that you believe that some are born predestined to be lost, and have no chance at salvation?

Just wanting to clarify what you mean, as I am not sure.

No, he's falsely communicating the Calvinist teaching of predestination. Predestination only applies to those with whose will God chose to interfere in order to save them. It is not predestination for God not to choose to interfere with the will of everyone else. If God did not interfere with the will of some and cause them to want to be saved, no one would ever be saved because, on his own, no human being ever wants to be saved. "There is none that seeketh after God..."

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

I need your address. I could not send it through. Your internet company blocks files that are over 10Meg. I have it on CD for you..

PM me your address...

Nathan Eckstadt

You both need to sign up for an email account with Inbox.com. You can send large files with them.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, he's falsely communicating the Calvinist teaching of predestination. Predestination only applies to those with whose will God chose to interfere in order to save them. It is not predestination for God not to choose to interfere with the will of everyone else. If God did not interfere with the will of some and cause them to want to be saved, no one would ever be saved because, on his own, no human being ever wants to be saved. "There is none that seeketh after God..."

Chan in reality this is the same thing. Folks teaching personal predestination are in one of the two camps divine causation or divine desertion it is the same thing and both are unBiblical.
Jesus died for all so He did not desert them.

[Beard]

Steve Epley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan View Post
No, he's falsely communicating the Calvinist teaching of predestination. Predestination only applies to those with whose will God chose to interfere in order to save them. It is not predestination for God not to choose to interfere with the will of everyone else. If God did not interfere with the will of some and cause them to want to be saved, no one would ever be saved because, on his own, no human being ever wants to be saved. "There is none that seeketh after God..."
Chan in reality this is the same thing. Folks teaching personal predestination are in one of the two camps divine causation or divine desertion it is the same thing and both are unBiblical.
Jesus died for all so He did not desert them.

I agree with the Elder here in his statement above...

Predestination does not negate any person's will, for man was given a free will; for predestination is according to God's foreknowledge. The responsibility is on man, not God; for anyone that states the "burden of the Lord" shall be cut off, for the burden is on man.

Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, the same with true believers. It is how a person responds to these things by one's own choice that determines the outcome. God's will is that all should come to repentance and none should perish, for he died for all. However, there is a world, the devil, and our own flesh that must be overcome by faith. The principle of faith enters into these things and cannot be discounted, for God moves in a life by faith. It is true that no one comes to Jesus except the Father draws him or her. However, someone prayed and asked God to save the lost sinner and God answered the prayer. Without believers taking up the cross and obeying the divine command of going into all the world, none would be saved. For dominion is man's as God gave Adam the dominion to subdue and replenish the earth. The duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments in which if he obeys and does this, he then receives the reward. If man does not do so in obedience by faith believing God, then he cannot please God and will not be accepted. Jesus died for the whole world, but the harvest will not be reaped without laborers.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).

The church is predestined for glory. We can get in or get left out. The choice is ours. JMO

[OneAccord]

I do believe in Predestination but not in the way it is explained in, say, the Branham movement. I believe ALL people are predestined to be saved, but, sadly, most do not make it. Its like this... you and I plan a trip to, say, Florida. We drive separate cars and, along the way, one of us gets lost and ends up in, say Texas. We were both "predestined" for Florida. One of us made it, the other didn't. Kinda like "two grinding in the mill, one is taken, the otheris left". I do not believe CERTAIN people are predestined to be saved, and some are predestined to be lost. All are predestined to be saved, but only those who are born again are actually saved. Thats the reason I believe ALL names are written in the Book of Life before we are ever born. (There is nothing about our names being added when we are saved.) But, by rejecting God's Word, our names CAN BE blotted out. And thats why I believe when Jesus said Ye must be born AGAIN He meant exactly that. We were born of God before we were born in the natural. After birth we began to "learn" sin and rebellion and die spiritually. Jesus said we must be born of God (come alive again) a second time. I don't agree with the definition of "predetermination" below. I don't believe a person has ever been born that doesn't have the hope of salvation.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Predestination refers to a divine order that something must come to pass. Predetermination refers to the settling of events before they happen, planning a specific outcome.

Predetermination is practiced by man, not a deity. So through the choices of ancestors, a person could be born in total spiritual darkness, with no hope of finding the Truth.