Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by robert

Re-read my post...long hair on women/short hair on men...The funny thing is when some one is anti-standard they allways try to make the one for standards as male chauvenist. Is this meant as away to discredit the pro-standard person. I believe modesty applys to men and women. Pastors are the preachers that God sent to teach us through preaching. My question is who decides what is the definition of modesty, man of God or the personal conviction.

And you still didn't address what I said!!

Are you even reading my posts?

Ok, let's start over.

Are you saying that a pastor has the right to say what is a heaven or hell issue in regard to standards, even if he claims to have scripture?

And I'm definitely not anti-standard. Not sure where you got that idea, since you don't even know me.

Yes, modesty applies to both men and women, but when did you last hear a standards message about how men should dress??

I've been in the church over 30 years under 6 pastors and I can tell you that I have yet to hear a 'men's standard message' preached.

So, what is your take on the question you asked above?

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by robert

Re-read my post...long hair on women/short hair on men...The funny thing is when some one is anti-standard they allways try to make the one for standards as male chauvenist. Is this meant as away to discredit the pro-standard person. I believe modesty applys to men and women. Pastors are the preachers that God sent to teach us through preaching. My question is who decides what is the definition of modesty, man of God or the personal conviction.

The Bible decides that...
All you have to do is know what modesty means...

[robert]

The standards question always seems to bring out the passion in everyone. Whether for...against...or undecided. This alone should prove the importance of this issue. The question this thread asks is what to do about standards? Keep them or discard them. The attacks came very quickly as I expected. I don't claim to have all the answers, but if standards doesn't really matter Why do some still hold them so dear. I wonder if Moses thought about taking off his shoes every time he saw a brush fire, just because of the memory of a Holy God. When a Saint of God continues to follow the standard of holiness aparrel they've lived with for so long I'm sure they think of God as they look at their selves in the mirror and see if everything is proper and in place. Well, I should say they'd be aware that God was looking if they changed that standard of holiness. I know many say what right does he have to judge me? Sorry I can't judge you, I don't even know any one here. So please don't take my words personally. As far as obeying every word for obtaining salvation...oops...bad choice of words. Got to be careful. You guys are sharp. I wrote a few post and every word was dissected looking for the fault or incosistencience in what I wrote. Got to go get some sleep, early day tomorrow. God bless you all.

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

My dear brother we are not saved because we are obedient to every word. I love the LORD and want to obey His word more than anything in my life. Howver, within this flesh I find no good thing and that which I should do I at times cannot and that which I should not do at times I am guilty of BUT THANKS BE TO GOD FOR HIS GIFT --- JESUS! We cannot do it all on are own we are still saved by GRACE.

Now folks, what we have right here is a good honest brother (You are a brother, ain't ya?) that makes more sense than anything I have read on this whole thread. He admits, just as Paul admits, he can't do it. You can keep every law, every standards, and still miss it. This brothers faith is not in what he does or doesn't do. Its in what Jesus did and is doing in his life. He doesn't dismiss standards as some ol' outdated thing that was "good enough for Grandma" but aint good enough for me. And he don't knuckle under a standard that ain't a standard at all- but merely someones idea of what a standard is suppose to be. The issue of standards will never, ever be settled until we come to terms with what is and what is not a Biblically mandated standard. Until then, I guess we'll just have to hobnobble along the best we can and let the Lord show us what we need to know. And, trust His Work of salvation, not our own. If I had a hat on, Bro Stokes, I'd doff my hat to ya. Post of the Day, right here!

[simplyme]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

[/B]

The Bible decides that...
All you have to do is know what modesty means...

You say it like its that easy, lol
It may be but people are whom make it harder than it has to be, whatever happened to common sense? common decency? I knew what was proper or not proper long before I read anything about it in the bible., I had a daddy!

And thats all I'll say about this [modesty].

[simplyme]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Now folks, what we have right here is a good honest brother (You are a brother, ain't ya?) that makes more sense than anything I have read on this whole thread. He admits, just as Paul admits, he can't do it. You can keep every law, every standards, and still miss it. This brothers faith is not in what he does or doesn't do. Its in what Jesus did and is doing in his life. He doesn't dismiss standards as some ol' outdated thing that was "good enough for Grandma" but aint good enough for me. And he don't knuckle under a standard that ain't a standard at all- but merely someones idea of what a standard is suppose to be. The issue of standards will never, ever be settled until we come to terms with what is and what is not a Biblically mandated standard. Until then, I guess we'll just have to hobnobble along the best we can and let the Lord show us what we need to know. And, trust His Work of salvation, not our own. If I had a hat on, Bro Stokes, I'd doff my hat to ya. Post of the Day, right here!

I have to agree, but then I think of the people whom have used that scripture as an excuse NOT to even try to do the least of something good we don't HAVE to be perfect, we all know that even without that scripture which btw is a fav of mine, It came to me at a time when I thought I was a failure, that I could never get right with GOD., it has been a comforting scripture to me at times.
That JESUS is all we need is a given., we are saved by grace, we all know that.
Lest we forget we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling", knowing that of course we do trust in His work of salvation., but its not over yet, there is some work of our own to do as long as we remain in this flesh.

[OneAccord]

If Jesus is our “standard bearer”, our example, the pattern which we are to follow, and if He was the manifestation of God in the flesh, and the very expressed image of God…. If He was, as Peter said, a man approved of God… then following standards would be the same as simply following Christ, right? I mean, He was without sin so, if we follow His example then we should be okay.

So, all we need to do is look at the “standards” that were in affect in His day, and simply keep those that He kept. Seems simple enough.

Lets begin….

First, we find Jesus, as a child, slipping off from His parents to go into the Temple, causing them mush worry and consternation. Wouldn’t that be dishonoring His parents which was a standard that was in affect at that time? But wait, technically, Joseph was not His parent, so, Jesus didn’t “Dishonor his FATHER and Mother. “

Next, we find Jesus being baptized in water. Since water baptism isn’t mentioned in the OT, we can’t really say that was a “standard” for that day. But, we know from Jesus' example and from Acts 2:38, that baptism is a NT standard for us to follow.

As Jesus grew into manhood, it is a commonly, historically and biblically view that He wore a beard. No NT or OT law against wearing facial hair so He is safe there. However, many churches teach against facial hair, so, though He did not violate the standards of His day, it would seem that He would be violating at least some church standards of today.

Next, and this is where it gets sticky. Jesus did two things that are questionable. First he healed on the Sabbath (a very strict standard of the day) and, He “plucked corn (wheat) on the Sabbath. Not only did He break the Sabbath, but He encouraged or allowed others to follow suit. Not only did he violate a MAJOR standard, He also encourages others to do the same. That’s a double whammy. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

Is there another instance where Jesus failed to keep “standards”? Yes, I believe their was a time when He ate with sinners. Contrary to the standards of the day. I believe He even ministered to a Non-Jewish woman. He even allowed a woman to wash His feet and dry them with her hair. Strictly against Jewish standards.

Here’s another. A woman was caught in the very act of adultery. Jesus defended and forgave the woman even though the standards of the day called for her to be put to death. His defense of the woman stopped a legal enforcement of the Law. He was guilty of interfering with the standards of the day.

He, as unbelievable as this was to the Jewish people, violated another strict standard. He ate with unwashed hands.

This is NOT about doing away with standards or negating their importance. Its about putting things in the proper perspective..By all means, stand your ground, just don’t try to force others to agree with your standards, when Jesus Himself broke the very Law He told to others to keep. Go back to Mat 5:19. That’s another one. By the definition of standards today, Jesus violated the very standard he told others to keep.

Here’s the point: Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. As intelligent, educated people who love the Lord and desire to be pleasing unto Him, all we need to do is: Listen to what the Bible says. What we read, or what we hear through the preaching of the Gospel, obey, if…IF…it is a biblically mandated standard or principle. If not, then, do as Paul said, work it out for yourself. Decide within yourself, between you and God, whether or not you will choose to adhere to that non-biblical principle. There are principles in my life that I keep that are biblically mandated . Do I keep all the Biblical mandates? No, I fail just like everyone else. I try, but, maybe not hard enough. There are principles I keep (at least try to) that are not biblically mandated. But I keep them because I feel that it is the right thing to do. But I don't demand others to keep them just because I do, or because I think everyone has to be just like me. Christian living isn’t about doing and not doing. Its about trusting the grace of God to lead us in His way. And… when you stop tothink about it, He’s a really good Leader… if we’ll follow.

[CC1]

Robert,

Good to see you posting!

Deacon Blue,

I have been missing your words of wisdome. It is good to see you posting again.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by robert

Apparently you want to change things to suit your preference of standards. Or do you have any standards. How far would one go and still be holy. You must have an opinion since you are challenging what has been accepted for the last 50 years. You could write an instruction book. "Holiness standards according to Randy Wayne", or "Why, Holiness standards should be different in this day and age". Excuse my sarcasm...but did I detect some sarcasm in YOUR quote. 50 years ago every religion had a standard of holiness they lived by, it's not the fad to have rules or standards any more, but thank God some still have moral convictions and standards or where would this world be.

Mmmmm... The "Standards According to Randy Wayne". How would such a book go? For starters it would be very short. It would start out with a verse about, ohhh, working out your own salvation followed by a verse saying to "obey those who have rule over you" MODIFIED by another verse condemning any who would add or take away from the Word.

So 3 or 4 versus... maybe.

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by simplyme

I have to agree, but then I think of the people whom have used that scripture as an excuse NOT to even try to do the least of something good we don't HAVE to be perfect, we all know that even without that scripture which btw is a fav of mine, It came to me at a time when I thought I was a failure, that I could never get right with GOD., it has been a comforting scripture to me at times.
That JESUS is all we need is a given., we are saved by grace, we all know that.
Lest we forget we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling", knowing that of course we do trust in His work of salvation., but its not over yet, there is some work of our own to do as long as we remain in this flesh.

Thats true... there is work to do. But as Paul clearly states any "works" do is because we are saved, and not to be saved. But, thats not the real issues. The idssue is these pesky standards that keep popping every couple of days. What do we do with them. I say keep those that are clearly and unmistakenly spelled out in the Word. Those that aren't, decide (Thats where the "work" come in) between yourself and God, what you will do with them. Thats what Paul said: WORK it out for yourself.