David Bernard Weighs In on General Board Decision

[scotty]

WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]

WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.


Where as others believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a part of the salvational plan

[Sam]

Originally Posted by scotty

WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]

WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.


Where as others believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a part of the salvational plan

The belief that the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) is an experience separate from and subsequent to the salvation/regeneration experience is the norm among the folks we call "Trinity Pentecostal" i.e. Assembly of God, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, etc. That belief is also quite common among those we call "Oneness Pentecostal." That belief is also what was taught and preached by the Apostolic ministers for many years in our history but over the years has been supplanted by the belief that the HGB is part of the "plan of salvation" along with water baptism.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

CC1,

I wonder if you ever considered that there are people who really want to live the way they do? Did you consider that perhaps another church environment is not suitable for them? Did you consider that some have been lead into this organization and would not think of leaving unless the Lord opened another door? Did you consider that God is still blessing these people?

Please understand that I express my thoughts with kindness to you.

Consider that none of us choose to live a particular way in a vaccum, or for no reason. We choose to live the way we live based on SOME point of reference, some influence, some edict.

I am incredulous when I hear women give the excuse, "well I WANT to live this way, it is my choice." Sure it is your choice based on DATA you have received.

It is like one (and many more I am sure...) preacher said, "I would do anything necessary in order not to go to hell..." Choice? This is like someone holding a gun to your head only for you to say, I chose to give you the money.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Consider that none of us choose to live a particular way in a vaccum, or for no reason. We choose to live the way we live based on SOME point of reference, some influence, some edict.

I am incredulous when I hear women give the excuse, "well I WANT to live this way, it is my choice." Sure it is your choice based on DATA you have received.

It is like one (and many more I am sure...) preacher said, "I would do anything necessary in order not to go to hell..." Choice? This is like someone holding a gun to your head only for you to say, I chose to give you the money.

Your interpretation of choice says it's an incredulous excuse. That wasn't my interpretation of choice. Don't put words in my mouth with something I never said, Carpenter.

You're also analyzing my life and you don't even know me. You don't know anything about me. You don't know my past and you don't know my future..

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Your interpretation of choice says it's an incredulous excuse. That wasn't my interpretation of choice. Don't put words in my mouth with I never said that, Carpenter.

You're also analyzing my life and you don't even know me. You know nothing about me. You don't know my past and you don't know my future.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I chose to say what I said. You didn't have any influence on me.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I didn't put words in your mouth, I chose to say what I said. You didn't have any influence on me.

You're still analyzing for me and other women. IMO your post was ridiculous.

I apologize for posting in such an aggressive manner. I'm dragging a post I made as way of explanation as to my mindset on this subject.

Randy,
I think the church is in a transition and I believe that changing slowly is the better way. I've seen so many changes since I've been in church over the last, going on, 22 years.

It's hard to move forward and lift barriers knowing you can take nothing back once the gate is open. It is nothing to take lightly.

On the part of "standards keepers", you see people leave to other works that don't end up being as decent in their private lives and churches that change doctrines. It's a confusing transition, for the most part, IMO.

I know a couple right now that left the UPC and their beliefs are so far out - it's scary! I personally don't know anyone that has left that has a good example of what is stronger. I'm sure some do, but I don't know anyone personally. I say personally.

I would much prefer the changes to be made slowly and calculating than to bend under pressure by people coming against the institution to push and demand a change, although part of that might be good to evaluate where we are headed. Even trouble can be good, if we stay focused on Biblical principles of "love one to another" - try our best.

I've talked to many women that do cut their hair - BUT - the majority say, "I wouldn't advise other people on what to do because I really don't know what I Cor 11 is actually saying." I'm saying the "majority" that I've talked with.

Can you see where some of the confusion is? Some people are not sure and want to be sure before they make a change - that goes for leadership and saint. It's just a process and we are not going to change one thing criticizing those that want to take their time. It's a grave responsibility.

Just my thoughts.
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...t=13019&page=3

Since I am a little overly impassioned on the subject I will refrain from posting. Forgive me again.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Sam

The belief that the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) is an experience separate from and subsequent to the salvation/regeneration experience is the norm among the folks we call "Trinity Pentecostal" i.e. Assembly of God, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, etc. That belief is also quite common among those we call "Oneness Pentecostal." That belief is also what was taught and preached by the Apostolic ministers for many years in our history but over the years has been supplanted by the belief that the HGB is part of the "plan of salvation" along with water baptism.

More truth ... Tongues or Hell was never the Apostolic message.

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

Dear Ministers of the South Texas District:

You will soon receive a 12-minute message on CD from me. As district superintendent, I want to share some thoughts briefly with you about where we are as a district. I thought it best to send this message now by mail, since we scheduled prayer conferences instead of our typical sectional conferences this year and since our district conference does not meet until June. The message also reflects the sentiments of our District Board as expressed in our meeting at the beginning of February.


In this email I want to give you a report on the recent meeting of the General Board. We discussed many items of business, but I would like to mention the three of greatest significance.



1. Belonging to Two Organizations. The UPCI Manual says on p. 46: “No minister shall be permitted to hold license or ordination with any other religious organization or association.” The legal counsel for the UPCI wrote an opinion stating that the General Board is the proper body to determine when this provision applies, and he identified some concerns that need to be considered in this regard. Consequently, the General Board decided that this provision applies to organizations that meet certain criteria such as requiring payment of ministerial dues, requiring subscription to Articles of Faith, and conducting operations that are parallel to the UPCI, even if an organization doesn’t use the precise language of issuing “license.” Specifically, the General Board concluded that it is not proper for someone to be a voting, dues-paying minister of the UPCI and also a voting, dues-paying minister of the new organization called Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship that was recently created at a conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Holding such dual ministerial membership could lead to conflicts of interests, since ministers could vote on parallel offices in two different organizations, would be subject to two different Articles of Faith, would be subject to two different procedures for ministerial discipline, and so on. Moreover, some confusion has already been created on the foreign missions field because of WPF leaders contacting and visiting national UPC ministers. The General Board also noted that each District Board has the responsibility and privilege to implement this provision of the Manual according to the circumstances and timing appropriate to each local situation. The Board’s decision was made after much prayer and discussion and with overwhelming consensus.



This ruling does not mean that members of the WPF are “under question,” and therefore it does not prohibit fellowship between members of the two groups. Of course, all of us should continue to follow ministerial ethics and UPCI guidelines in this regard. The Board recognized that a number of good men have chosen to become part of the new group, and there is no desire to disparage them.


In light of this ruling, as district superintendent I appeal to you as follows. (1) If any are considering the possibility of officially joining the WPF, I urge you not to do so. If you wish to have fellowship with WPF ministers or attend WPF-sponsored events, you can do so without becoming a dues-paying member. (2) If any have officially joined the WPF, I urge you not to continue paying dues and not to renew membership after the initial period. (3) If you have any questions or concerns, I urge you to discuss them with your presbyter or with me as district superintendent. Through good communication, I believe we can resolve any difficulties or problems.



Many are curious to know how many ministers have left the UPCI over Resolution 4 (concerning TV advertising) or the WPF. Our general secretary, Jerry Jones, reports that to date 67 ministers have withdrawn or been dropped for nonpayment of dues because of this situation. Of these, 49 are pastors. He explains that this number will increase somewhat because there is still a grace period for those who have dropped for nonpayment of dues, and his office is still waiting to get clarification on some cases. Based on the reported number of cases still being processed, it appears to me that these numbers could double. A number of ministers listed on the WPF General Council have stated that they do not intend to leave the UPCI, and some ministers who have left the UPCI have stated that they do not intend to join the WPF. In our district, I know of one minister who is dropping his license because of this situation. In addition, one minister has dropped for failure to sign the affirmation statement, due to a change of doctrinal views.



2. Spanish Ministry Division. Since Spanish Ministry has grown to about 500 churches and daughter works in the U.S. and Canada, the Planning Committee of the General Board presented a proposal for the formation of a Spanish Ministry Division. After some discussion of finances and operations, the General Board asked for a committee to work on this plan and establish criteria and benchmarks for the development of such a division. It would function on a national level much as the South Texas Spanish Ministry Department currently functions in our district. The proposal will come back to the General Board at its next meeting for further review and consideration. Ultimately, it would need to go to the General Conference for approval. In the meantime, I urge our ministers, especially the pastors of Spanish-speaking churches, to give strong support to the national Spanish Ministry so that we can continue to make progress in this area.



3. The UPCI Position on Holiness and Separation from the World. The General Board had an extended discussion of the importance of maintaining our identity as a holiness movement and upholding our positions in this area as stated in the Articles of Faith. There was a consensus that we need to reaffirm these teachings, and the general superintendent will write a letter to our constituency to express our commitment to them. At the same time, the General Board concluded that it is not enough simply to reaffirm our position, but we must implement practical ways to teach biblical holiness. To accomplish this goal, various means will be employed, including publications, General Conference, Global Impact, and other methods. On a related note, the General Youth Division presented some exciting plans for Youth Congress in 2009 that will incorporate this goal in a positive way while avoiding some problems and concerns that have occurred in the past. The General Youth Division will also develop platform guidelines for Youth Congress and Bible Quizzing participants.



In summary, there was a great spirit of unity and consensus in the General Board meeting. There was a strong commitment to our Apostolic identity and an equally strong commitment to move forward with Global Impact, with the goal of doubling over the next ten years.



Sincerely in Christ Jesus,

David K. Bernard, Superintendent

South Texas District

There will be a closed "holiness" meeting for all ministers at General Conference this year. Leaders will reaffirm the UPC's committment to the holiness standards listed in the manual. A question and answer session will be part of the meeting.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

There will be a closed "holiness" meeting for all ministers at General Conference this year. Leaders will reaffirm the UPC's committment to the holiness standards listed in the manual. A question and answer session will be part of the meeting.

Will there be a catwalk and a Holiness clothing expo?

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Will there be a catwalk and a Holiness clothing expo?

I was at a meeting of ministers last night.

There was considerable upset over the idea that there is a further need for holiness affirmation.

We agreed to it when we were licensed.

We sign an affirmation each year.

Now this.


What's next?

A signature in blood?