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11-25-2007, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyme
Its not that they don't require them..its that many more are refusing to wear them, there is rebellion all throughout THE CHURCH., walking in the midst of liberal 'worldly' atmosphere, there have always been "lefts" and "rights" in just about any church org., or BODY of CHRIST., sooo what else is new. :
The fact that many everywhere are doing things contrary to bible, does not mean its not as bad in one org as another, its ALL just LIFE I guess., still a lot of wrong in organized religions.
JMHO
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Political considerations have been made also, Simply. I know of one pastor the AA will not require to preach it since they wanted him to be part of the organization due to who he is.
My parents came to the Lord in the Assembly, in 1972. I have the utmost respect and gratitude for their endeavors
Some churches in the CA have become extremely lax when it comes to standards ... and this has been for years ...
Their music has been outstanding .... Aaron Lopez from Union City, for example, has even directed music at the UPCI GC.
Here is Tabernaculo Cristiano, pastored by Abel Aguilar ... His son, Jason, is now living, in New York.
[yt="CT]5WA_98-O2Cs[/yt]
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11-25-2007, 07:25 AM
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[YT="CT"]7-hujZ_DjaQ[/YT]
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11-25-2007, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyman
****This is an email from my bro, Doctor Daniel Ramirez******
This is what I call the structural implosion of Oneness Pentecostalism, what with the UPCI troubles, ,the split of Chicago's Brazier and LA's Jones from the PAW, and now this in the Assembly.
There are allegations of vote fraud in some of the general board positions voted on in the 2006 general convention in Long Beach. Some of the incumbents and senior emeriti and junior pastors have formed an opposition that may be taking its case to the courts. We're talking big names. Of course, if they go to California courts, the Assembly has a 100% batting average there. If they go to Texas, the odds may be different. This does not break down simply, or the way that differences over standards and practices might, that is, not easy conservative-moderate-liberal divide here. More personality dynamics. Personally, I was blindsided. I predicted that the first cleavages (cochino, get your mind out of the gutter!) would be over standards, women's empowerment, ,etc., but I do think that if one peels away layers of ostensible differences and charges and counter-charges, at base it comes down to pride and power, male pride and power. In this, the Assembly's troubles are much like those of the UPCI and PAW.
The ironic thing is, that the governing board that came out of the general convention was, IMHO, perhaps the best equipped one to handle today's and tomorrow's challenges. I've been consulted by the education secretary to help him and his team think about ratcheting up the quality of theological education. They have now made serious inroads with Fuller Seminary and Claremont School of Theology. But all this and more may be jeopardized by the charge of voting irregularities. NOT, mind you, that the AA was ever a paradigm of democratic governance.....
I think the ball is really in the oppostion's court. If they press beyond this by now very clear protest over integrity, and take it to the next level, then they may pass a point of no return. Again, power, pride, and humilty are the key variables in the outcome. They just wrapped up general convention in Texas. I will be in touch with my sources soon.
Of course, I've been asked by many pastor friends for my opinion as a historian. I tell them that the historian doesn't take sides. He has the luxury of showing up on the day after the battle to count the bodies. Then we declare winners and losers. On the other hand, given my deep roots in the Assembly, it does not fail to pain me to see them go through this. Ditto the UPCI, and for that matter, the PAW.
Maybe Catholic cardenal Jacopo Salodeto was right when he warned the Protestant citizens of Geneva that once they split from the organic unity of the Christian Church, they would never stop splitting......
*edited* (basically look for his forthcoming book on Harvard Press and he might be teaching there soon...smartypants)
Love,
Tu carnal
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I enjoyed reading this, MM ... thanks for sharing it ... some great insights.
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11-25-2007, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad
At one time ( a generation ago) it was mandatory in the catholic church too. now, it's rare if you see any wearing one except those who are first generation from mexico or south america and very old.
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And this is where the teaching comes from the RCC ... some allowed their culture, machismo and tradition to mesh w/ the "New Issue" ... in the early part of the last century.
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11-25-2007, 09:27 AM
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www.capitalcommunity.ca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyme
This is subjective for you, {bolded black above, along with other comments in blue} not fair to lump this fine org of godly saints, into such a cold statement., from what I've learned its origin goes waaay back into days of old in Mexico.
People are people everywhere, many are just not 'into it" {loving serving GOD} many of youth are fragile about how they are seen by peers so of course this may pose a problem just like any other issue such as bible reading., praying and so on, its all part of a personal relationship with JESUS that a person can choose to have or not have, people of any age for that matter.
I HAVE known many consecrated youths from the AAFCJ, though. Great inspiring souls committed to GOD its refreshing and exciting, to see.,
my own sons were baptized in this org as well and are fine examples of young christian men., walking in the midst of a secular world, they have done rather well the HG guides their lives., the favor of GOD rests upon them.
The AAFCJ is different in ways I can't explalin from UPC or other JESUSname org's {not doctrinal though} I have a most special connection to it, I have no regrets about my becoming a 'saint' there. I had never spoken much spanish before then, nor knew it like I now do, had it not been for where GOD led me to., as part of His plan for me after being long backslidden/lost from a relationship with Him, [albeit baptist],
I was much in love with JESUS since long ago {a little girl} and He led me back to a truer relationship with Him HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER! There isn't anything too much that I can't do for Him, includes wearing my LONG lace veils during prayer, worship and bible reading., in fact I do it for ME, too. I AM what and where HE alone has made me and led me to., a most interesting journey. I wouldn't change it if I could. (most of it)
BTW most AAFCJ godly men in leaderships that I've known refrain from going online onto public forums such as this., they are way too busy with the ministries GOD has put them in, and I respect them for that, GOD's Word is not to be used as a pawn of any sort., its not to be taken lightly, nor debated to death like so many secular topics. JMHO
Thats all from me, too, about this.
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Hello simplyme...just some history for ya. I have two uncles, Roberto & Tomas Ramirez, who started many AA churches in Texas waaay back in the day! They worked their tails off and now have their reward in heaven. Both of their wives are still alive and well.
I will always love these folks although I have not been a part since the 1st grade...this rift as the UPCI's makes me sad.
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11-25-2007, 09:29 AM
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www.capitalcommunity.ca
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
I enjoyed reading this, MM ... thanks for sharing it ... some great insights.
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No problem yo...you dudes need to hook up, you might get each other saved, he he!
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11-25-2007, 11:03 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyman
Hello simplyme...just some history for ya. I have two uncles, Roberto & Tomas Ramirez, who started many AA churches in Texas waaay back in the day! They worked their tails off and now have their reward in heaven. Both of their wives are still alive and well.
I will always love these folks although I have not been a part since the 1st grade...this rift as the UPCI's makes me sad.
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I wouldn't consider it a "rift" even someone earlier mentioned it was more about the men..etc., it isn't an org split, per se., but problems with election results., not saying either that there couldn't be other problems as well, of course there has to be., anytime you turn THE CHURCH into a nonprofit org, running it like any other business of the world, there will invariably be problems. People are human, what else is new?
These times of liberality spirit spreading everywhere could have been prophesied years ago., no one is exempt., and org. religion is becoming something I don't even want to be part of anymore., I have known nothing of this situation., till this thread, (imagine my horror). I met brSanchez, at gen conv a few years back, he was then vice-pres., there are so many excellent preachers and their LARGE churches, over there in CA, western U.S. regions, (also FL) and excel in bi-lingual services, great mass choirs, etc., really different from TX churches., churches over there have laxed on the standards since people are flocking away from them period. I don't like it., I prefer the "old ways" and stick with them as much as possible., it remains MY conviction., my former pastor who wants us back there, still teaches on the 'veils'., but no one is forced to comply., contrary to popular belief, this topic is not preached from the pulpit - yet we who do choose to wear them will always continue this dedication to our holy GOD.
BroSeguidordeJesus of this forum, knows me and my former pastor, he visited us a couple of years back., and got to read some book pastor had on the veils., I never got to read it but didn't really need to, lol
Asi es, hermano!
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11-25-2007, 11:17 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
And this is where the teaching comes from the RCC ... some allowed their culture, machismo and tradition to mesh w/ the "New Issue" ... in the early part of the last century.
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WHAT teaching? If its headcoverings sorry but thats from Bible., and yes of course the Catholics used them as I mentioned., we wore them when I was little, and funny that I should find them 4decades later, but AAFCJ is not remotely catholic in any sense., no xmas decorating either, lol
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11-25-2007, 02:33 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Hard to say what will happen if/when this goes to court. I know that probably the first thing I learned in Constitutional Law a couple of decades ago is that courts should not get themselves involved in deciding religious issues. I was reminded of this when I read an article today about how the New York Court of Appeal decided it could not get in the middle of who should run the Satmar Jewish sect. (See http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=19355 ).
So people may spend lots of money on attorneys and end up finding out that the courts may not hear their case because of the religious issues involved. To me, that'd be a huge STOP sign about going to law with a brother.
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11-25-2007, 03:32 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyme
This is subjective for you, {bolded black above, along with other comments in blue} not fair to lump this fine org of godly saints, into such a cold statement., from what I've learned its origin goes waaay back into days of old in Mexico.
People are people everywhere, many are just not 'into it" {loving serving GOD} many of youth are fragile about how they are seen by peers so of course this may pose a problem just like any other issue such as bible reading., praying and so on, its all part of a personal relationship with JESUS that a person can choose to have or not have, people of any age for that matter.
I HAVE known many consecrated youths from the AAFCJ, though. Great inspiring souls committed to GOD its refreshing and exciting, to see.,
my own sons were baptized in this org as well and are fine examples of young christian men., walking in the midst of a secular world, they have done rather well the HG guides their lives., the favor of GOD rests upon them.
The AAFCJ is different in ways I can't explalin from UPC or other JESUSname org's {not doctrinal though} I have a most special connection to it, I have no regrets about my becoming a 'saint' there. I had never spoken much spanish before then, nor knew it like I now do, had it not been for where GOD led me to., as part of His plan for me after being long backslidden/lost from a relationship with Him, [albeit baptist],
I was much in love with JESUS since long ago {a little girl} and He led me back to a truer relationship with Him HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER! There isn't anything too much that I can't do for Him, includes wearing my LONG lace veils during prayer, worship and bible reading., in fact I do it for ME, too. I AM what and where HE alone has made me and led me to., a most interesting journey. I wouldn't change it if I could. (most of it)
BTW most AAFCJ godly men in leaderships that I've known refrain from going online onto public forums such as this., they are way too busy with the ministries GOD has put them in, and I respect them for that, GOD's Word is not to be used as a pawn of any sort., its not to be taken lightly, nor debated to death like so many secular topics. JMHO
Thats all from me, too, about this.
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The part in BOLD is the part I am responding too....isn't that really just a left-over from Roman Catholicism?
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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