Baptism for salvation questions

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

No one is refuting that all our deeds should be done in Jesus name ... ... nor is anyone advocating that the name should not be invoked or called upon during baptism..... clearly it's biblical ... the question is who does the invoking and for what purpose.

We should call upon the name Jesus when we pray, first come to repentance, cast out demons and drive our car ... but the power is not in the incantation of the name ... or in it's vain repetition as some have become accustomed to

the power is in Him that has given the authority and he who has the power and in everything His name represents

.... nor does someone else calling upon it effectuate remission for another believer. I don't see that in scripture ... I see the opposite in Romans.

I know that's what all of us believe .... that it's not just the name but in who possesses the power...

but when we examine soteriological issues some would make the incantation of the name by the baptizer the be all and end all to effectuating remission.

The following scriptures make evident that simple invocation is not enough ....

Acts 19:13-16: "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

Matthew 10:1: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."

Matthew 17:15-18: "And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour."

One has to assume they tried to in the name of Jesus.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Evidently, simply knowing the name and using it ... is not God's measuring stick to salvation.

We are stating simply that invocation of the name by a third party does not mitigate salvation ...

Do I see precedent in the scriptures for this ....yes ...

do I see precedent to baptize in the power and authority given to us by Jesus ... yes ... onama ... indicates this .... in the Greek.

Is there anything wrong or damnable in baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost when we know that His name is Jesus ... no.

Do I see a 1st century pattern of baptisms performed in the name of the Lord Jesus, or Jesus Christ. to be biblical ... yes ...

Do I see dialogs of baptisms of apostles stating "I baptize you in Jesus name" ... no.

Nor will I find every sermon preached to unbelievers by Peter and Paul in Act that state that baptism is salvific ... sometimes is not even mentioned.

In each sermon they do require repentance and true belief, however.

But interestingly enough when we examine the dialog between Philip and the eunuch ... it seems important to Philip ... to know that the Eunuch confessed Jesus as the Son of God prior to immersing him ... it gives one pause ... to think that it was this confession of the name Jesus and a repentant heart that led to his salvation. Philip baptized him in this name ... invoking the authority given to him to do so ... but it wasn't the act in of itself that applied the blood for remission .... nor the incantation.
__________________

Dan are you saying that baptism in Jesus name means ONLY the person being baptized has to call on the name of Jesus before, during of just after water baptism and that the baptizer does nothing but dunks them?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Yes, the Gospel of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. The resurrection is good news because it proves that the issue of sin has been dealt with in the eyes of God. If God would have still imputed the sins of the world to Christ he would not have risen from the dead. The fact of the resurrection shows that sin has been forgiven. Those in Christ are to be resurrected with Christ because we have been crucified with him, i.e., our sins have been taken to the cross with him. We are to place our faith in his resurrection and reckon ourselves alive unto God as well. We are to place our faith in the sin remitting work of Christ which resulted in his reception of the promise of eternal life and understand this is our ultimate future as well. Our hope rests in the truth of the Gospel.

We are to "repent and believe the Gospel." This is another way of saying we are to have repentance and faith. Repentance is inseparable from faith. The heart returning to faith in God (the heart turning away from dead works and turning toward God in faith) was to return to God via faith in Christ.

The correct response to hearing the good news of the Gospel is to return to God (repent) in faith. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the avenue by which the repentant heart is to return to God.

So then repentance is a separate thing from the gospel yet we have to do it anyways to be saved. Is that correct?

Is obedience inseparable from faith and or repentance?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Circumcision in the OT never took away sins .... clearly Paul's parallel with it has more in significance than what you have stated in your exegesis, Beard.... nor did it save anyone. Abraham was circumcised 12 years after he entered in a covenant w/ God ... are you suggesting he was unsaved during this interim?

If someone was not circumcised though they were cut off from Israel...does this mean then that if someone is not baptized they will be cut off from the church?

[Beard]

Circumcision in the OT never took away sins .... clearly Paul's parallel with it has more in significance than what you have stated in your exegesis, Beard.... nor did it save anyone. Abraham was circumcised 12 years after he entered in a covenant w/ God ... are you suggesting he was unsaved during this interim?

I haven't suggested anything of the sort. I did not state that Abraham was lost until he was circumcised, neither Seth, Enoch, nor Noah for that matter.

Circumcision of the flesh truly did not save any, neither did the blood of animals wash away sins; all were types and shadows of the truth to come, truths concerning circumcision in being a true Jew of the household of faith. Circumcision was a sign of the Abrahamic covenant that if any were not circumcised in the flesh, they were cut off. Before the cross, circumcision was natural in the flesh. After the cross, circumcision is spiritual, being that of the heart and not of the flesh which is done through the operation of God by baptism.

Blood flow is dynamic, never static. The blood is in the New Testament given for you; that is, Jesus; therefore, whoever walks in the light as Jesus is in the light has fellowship one with another (blood flow)...and then and only then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteous. This cleansing is not static in a one time act, but is dynamic being a process continually being washed in the blood of Jesus through the washing of the water of the Word. Obedience to the Word is required, for the Holy Ghost is given to them that obey Him. All unrighteous is sin...there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. Whoever knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin.

Was God really going to kill Moses' son because he was not circumcised in the flesh? Will God kill anyone who has not had the spiritual circumcision of the heart, in the spirit? For those that have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Will he drive out the wicked that have not on a wedding garment?

Each minister will answer to God for the things that he/she has preached and give an account. Some preach salvation as a mental exercise by asking Jesus "to come into their heart", believing that salvation is simply a matter of asking. On the other hand, others as well as myself believe that obedience is required in faith being applied, for without works faith is not made perfect...bottom line: faith alone without works is dead, being alone.

Did Jesus come into the uncircumcised heart of the sinner who asked him to come into their heart? Was the body of sin destroyed by their simply asking Jesus to come into their heart? I do not find it anywhere in scripture. Does the Word have to be obeyed in being baptized, invoking the name of Jesus? Maybe you will enlighten us as to what the ordinance of baptism is and to what purpose does it serve, if any?

The indictment against the churches as seen in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is that works did not accompany faith; for Jesus stated to each church, "I know thy works". The day of the Lord Jesus will declare that Jesus did indeed expect perfect works in perfecting faith for all to come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. We are admonished to go on unto perfection, not laying again, among other principles, the doctrine of baptism. (Hebrews 6:1). But when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?

[mizpeh]

Beard,

Hebrews 6:1-2 speaks of the doctrine of baptisms...plural. Baptism of water and the baptism of the Spirit.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No mention of repentance....so how do we get saved according to the gospel?

Repenting doesn't save you. Repenting is considered works as is baptism. Nowhere does the bible once state that in order to obtain salvation you have to repent. We are saved because we believe in our heart that Jesus is Lord. Paul clearly said what the gospel by which he was saved. He left nothing out.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

These verses leave nothing out, they clearly state how to be saved. YOU WILL BE SAVED. It doesn't get any clearly than that.

Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


It doesn't matter how righteous we try to be, those deeds will not saves us.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The Gospel, which Paul preached, must have included also salvation by faith, without the works of the law because Paul said
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
Gal 2:15 We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,
Gal 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Yet we don't find that in the verses you posted...they were either left out by Paul or somehow implied or included in the definition of preaching Christ's death, buriel and resurrection

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Its saying the same thing just worded differently.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

In fact one has to wonder why the connection between believing the gospel and being baptized

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Doesn't mention salvation.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Also one has to wonder how can one obey the gospel when all it is is telling someone about Jesus being killed, buried and resurrected...

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Doesn't mention salvation

Originally Posted by Praxeas

1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God. And if it first begins from us, what will be the end of those disobeying the gospel of God?

Doesn't mention salvation.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Dan are you saying that baptism in Jesus name means ONLY the person being baptized has to call on the name of Jesus before, during of just after water baptism and that the baptizer does nothing but dunks them?

I'm not Dan, but I will put my two cents worth. If we are going to be called "Apostolic" and a "new testament church", obviously one would think we would want to be biblically based in our baptism. Baptism was a ritual cleansing incorportated into the mosaic law. If a woman was on her monthly, she would go and "cleanse" herself. If you were healed of leprosy, etc. one would obey the law and cleanse themselves. These baptism pools were all over the holy land and were called "Mikvahs". When Peter preached in Acts 2, he told them to go wash according to the "new covenant" which was Christ. They were no longer to cleanse themselves according to the "old covenant" which was the law. Also, it was a public confession as to their new found faith in this messiah called Jesus Christ. In those days to public confess ones faith away from the law to follow Jesus, was inviting persecution if not death from the religious community. Three thousand obeyed Peter and went and washed themselves. I am not saying an individual is not saved by invocation, rather biblically speaking, it is always up to the believer to call on Christ for salvation.

Act 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Act 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

[Praxeas]

Well there you have it. We don't need to repent to be saved. I never thought I would see or hear anyone say that. Most non-OPs I know of say you must repent to be saved

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

Doesn't mention salvation.



Doesn't mention salvation




Doesn't mention salvation.

That's pretty obvious. Can you answer my question though? How do we OBEY the gospel?