Left Behind nonsense Movie

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I didn't say there was a word for Rapture there...

I didn't SAY this verse mentions an anti-Christ, a 7 year Tribulation

HOWEVER, since clearly I have to explain it to you

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord

The part in BOLD is the idea behind the word "Rapture".

The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek word used in the above verse as
as rapiemur,from the verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away".

That is where we get, in english, the word Rapture


The Greek word used above is
harpázō; fut. harpásō, aor. pass. hērpásthēn, 2d aor. pass. hērpágēn. To seize upon, spoil, snatch away. In Class. Gr., the fut. pass. harpázomai is used more often than in the NT. Literally, to seize upon with force, to rob; differing from kléptō (G2813), to steal secretly. It denotes an open act of violence in contrast to cunning and secret stealing. Though generally harpázō denotes robbery of another's property, it is not exclusively used thus, but sometimes used generally meaning forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself (Mat_13:19; Joh_6:15; Joh_10:12, Joh_10:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23). Especially used of the rapture (Act_8:39; 2Co_12:2, 2Co_12:4; 1Th_4:17; Rev_12:5); to use force against one (Mat_11:12).


Robertson says "Shall be caught up (harpagēsometha). Second future passive indicative of harpazō, old verb to seize, to carry off like Latin rapio."

Me thinks you need to go back two verses take a notice that in 1Th 4:15 it says "the coming of the Lord" there is no need to add the word rapture in anywhere here.

There are plenty of places where it says "coming of the Lord" not one single place in the scriptures where it says the "rapture".

The word "rapture" is loaded with all kinds of non-biblical concepts.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Notice the terminology. It is HEAVEN, not the sky. We cannot see into heaven. It was A "SIGN" of Jesus in Heaven. If it was the Son of man Himself there would be no mention of a SIGN for HIM.

If we read Daniel 7, we read of the son of man IN CLOUDS IN HEAVEN, but He went to the throne, not the earth. And the SIGN OF THAT -- the sign of Him having gone to the throne -- were events that occurred on earth. the SIGN the disciples asked about in verse 3. And that SIGN of what they asked about is the same SIGN of the temple destruction in Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7. Note reference to THESE THINGS in those verses and read before them to see what THESE THINGS refer to. they sought a sign of Jesus coming in destruction!

I don't quite follow how you believe the sign of the son of man in heaven was the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem - that's a far stretch!

Originally Posted by mfblume

EARTH is LAND in Greek. TRIBES OF THE LAND. Isreal's tribes. Do you not think they mourned when the capital city and temple were razed to the ground?

Trying to assign the tribes of Israel to that portion of scripture is a stretch as well!

Originally Posted by mfblume

He came TO THE THRONE as Daniel 7 attests. THE SIGN OF THAT presence in clouds in heaven was the things he said would occur in Jerusalem.

You have to understand what the gathering means to know that, and that is understood by what we read using the same terms in Matt 23:37. What did he mean there? Also, compare Matt 23:36, and consider who he meant, with Matt 24:34.

Matthew 24:34 GNB Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Basically, what you've done here is turned the entire passage of Matt 24 into a parable, symbolic spiritual passage, without acknowledging that there is a literal interpretation as well. I do believe part of the passage is referring to the a.d. 70 Jewish destruction, however.... I don't believe that was all that Jesus was referencing in that chapter.... You are grasping at straws and extra meanings of words to try and insert your view there.

Sean did a great job of explaining in another thread that this chapter involves Jesus answering three questions the disciples had asked. Jesus answered all three of those questions in the passage of Matt. 24:3 (1. When shall these things be? 2. What shall be the sign of thy coming? 3. What shall be the end of the world?) in that chapter, which we know cannot only hold the answer for the ad 70 destruction of the temple, because here we are 2000 years later, and the world has not ended.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Let's see if this works...

"Sean is a monkey"

*Hacks into Sean's PC and turns his web cam on and captures a still*

Oh my....It works! Words really ARE powerful

Hey, your spying on me....thats the image of the "beast"...LOL

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Notice the terminology. It is HEAVEN, not the sky. We cannot see into heaven. It was A "SIGN" of Jesus in Heaven. If it was the Son of man Himself there would be no mention of a SIGN for HIM.

The Greek word can actually mean Sky.

Also how would all tribes mourn if they could not see that sign? Why would those in heaven need a sign?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Me thinks you need to go back two verses take a notice that in 1Th 4:15 it says "the coming of the Lord" there is no need to add the word rapture in anywhere here.

Once again I did NOT add a word there nor did I say the word Rapture was there

That is TWICE you did that. Next time I have to call a spade a spade so please don't.

There are plenty of places where it says "coming of the Lord" not one single place in the scriptures where it says the "rapture".

The word "rapture" is loaded with all kinds of non-biblical concepts.

You didn't deal honestly with a single thing I posted. All you did was obfuscate some lie that I said the word rapture was there.

I challenge you to actually deal with what I have said so far rather than dealing with strawman arguments

One more thing, the theme is the resurrection of the dead. You'll notice that so far all you have done is partially quote one verse and then pontificate about the word rapture rather than deal with what I have posted and that I have dealt with not just one out of context verse

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
"fallen asleep" is an idiom for the dead

Paul specifically says He will bring WITH Him those that have died.. WITH HIM.

THEN Paul addresses those still alive when this event happens

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.

Then Paul explains what will happen

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

the Lord will descend and then the dead will rise FIRST..that word FIRST implies another thing will happen next

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Then Paul explains those still alive and who remain will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds...IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. IN THE AIR

That is what the word "rapture" refers to. Nothing more and nothing less. The fact you try to attach other things to it is a strawman argument. The fact you try portray my responses as saying the word rapture was used in the bible is another strawman argument..a dishonest one

Please stop doing that

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This is the event called "Rapture"

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

There is no word "rapture" here
The only term used here is the one I use "the coming of the Lord"

There is no mention in here anywhere anything about an anti-Christ, a 7 year tribulation or people disappearing. None of the items included in the term "Rapture" are mentioned in here at all.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I didn't say there was a word for Rapture there...

I didn't SAY this verse mentions an anti-Christ, a 7 year Tribulation

HOWEVER, since clearly I have to explain it to you

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord

The part in BOLD is the idea behind the word "Rapture".

The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek word used in the above verse as
as rapiemur,from the verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away".

That is where we get, in english, the word Rapture


The Greek word used above is
harpázō; fut. harpásō, aor. pass. hērpásthēn, 2d aor. pass. hērpágēn. To seize upon, spoil, snatch away. In Class. Gr., the fut. pass. harpázomai is used more often than in the NT. Literally, to seize upon with force, to rob; differing from kléptō (G2813), to steal secretly. It denotes an open act of violence in contrast to cunning and secret stealing. Though generally harpázō denotes robbery of another's property, it is not exclusively used thus, but sometimes used generally meaning forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself (Mat_13:19; Joh_6:15; Joh_10:12, Joh_10:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23). Especially used of the rapture (Act_8:39; 2Co_12:2, 2Co_12:4; 1Th_4:17; Rev_12:5); to use force against one (Mat_11:12).


Robertson says "Shall be caught up (harpagēsometha). Second future passive indicative of harpazō, old verb to seize, to carry off like Latin rapio."

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Me thinks you need to go back two verses take a notice that in 1Th 4:15 it says "the coming of the Lord" there is no need to add the word rapture in anywhere here.

There are plenty of places where it says "coming of the Lord" not one single place in the scriptures where it says the "rapture".

The word "rapture" is loaded with all kinds of non-biblical concepts.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Once again I did NOT add a word there nor did I say the word Rapture was there

That is TWICE you did that. Next time I have to call a spade a spade so please don't.


You didn't deal honestly with a single thing I posted. All you did was obfuscate some lie that I said the word rapture was there.

I challenge you to actually deal with what I have said so far rather than dealing with strawman arguments

One more thing, the theme is the resurrection of the dead. You'll notice that so far all you have done is partially quote one verse and then pontificate about the word rapture rather than deal with what I have posted and that I have dealt with not just one out of context verse

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
"fallen asleep" is an idiom for the dead

Paul specifically says He will bring WITH Him those that have died.. WITH HIM.

THEN Paul addresses those still alive when this event happens

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.

Then Paul explains what will happen

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

the Lord will descend and then the dead will rise FIRST..that word FIRST implies another thing will happen next

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Then Paul explains those still alive and who remain will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds...IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. IN THE AIR

That is what the word "rapture" refers to. Nothing more and nothing less. The fact you try to attach other things to it is a strawman argument. The fact you try portray my responses as saying the word rapture was used in the bible is another strawman argument..a dishonest one

Please stop doing that

You have a lot of catching up to do. I don't know what your problem is but clearly I never said the word Rapture is in the bible. I said THE IDEA is and then I explained what the word means and what Greek word was used in the text

I would appreciate an honest response next time to my post and actually dealing with what I said rather than pretending I said something I did not

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You have a lot of catching up to do.

You mean, rapturing? lol

I don't know what your problem is but clearly I never said the word Rapture is in the bible. I said THE IDEA is and then I explained what the word means and what Greek word was used in the text.

This is correct.. The Latin term for term CAUGHT UP is the root word for rapture.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The Greek word can actually mean Sky.

Also how would all tribes mourn if they could not see that sign? Why would those in heaven need a sign?

That's not what I said. It is not a sign for those in heaven. The sign was on earth. The sign was the same SIGN noted in Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7. Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 are actually other forms of saying the same thing that Matt 24:3 said.

I said the sign was destruction of the temple and city.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I don't quite follow how you believe the sign of the son of man in heaven was the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem - that's a far stretch!

Read Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 and notice what THE SIGN is described as there.

Trying to assign the tribes of Israel to that portion of scripture is a stretch as well!

It is what the Greek allows for. Check the Greek term out for yourself.

Basically, what you've done here is turned the entire passage of Matt 24 into a parable, symbolic spiritual passage, without acknowledging that there is a literal interpretation as well.

Incorrect. I took it at what is consistent in the context of the bible's writings alone. I showed the same words in the same context of issues from Matt 23 into 24 in regards to GATHER TOGETHER. I took the additional clarification of Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 to show what the sign was. I did not twist anything but read the entire context one day and noticed that it is not a cessation of AD70 language at all. Unless a person compares it to Mark 13 and Luke 21 one would miss the fact that the SIGN they looked for was destruction of the temple. See for yourself.

There are not three questions as such. To say there are is to deny the correlation with Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7. The questions are synonymous. They are repeating the same thing in varying terms, just like the rest of the bible does in many instances.

The end of the WORLD in Matthew 24 is not the earth, BUT THE END OF THE AGE. AION, from which we get EON in English. We have to research the Greek in this. And those who don't miss many integral points.

Matthew 24:3 ISV While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things take place, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"



I ask you to read this carefully:

Everyone is familiar with the SYNOPTIC GOSPELS... Matthew, Mark and Luke. They carry for the the same stories, for the most part, during Jesus' time on earth, and simply rephrase the stories from how they personally knew about it and the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all relate the same conversation Jesus had with the disciples about the coming of the Lord.

Notice Matthew 24 says the "SIGN" the disciples asked about is the "coming" of the Lord and the end of the "age", whereas both Mark and Luke say the "SIGN" in the same conversation was of the destruction of the temple.


Mat 24:2-3 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Luke 21:6-7 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Mark 13:2-4 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, (4) Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


It’s the same conversation! Matthew records the same thought as Mark and Luke did, using different words. The manner in which we understand what the sign of the coming of the Lord in Matthew 24:3 is, is by realizing that same sign is noted in Luke as the sign when "these things" shall come to pass. What things? The stones of the temple being overthrown!

This allows scripture to interpret itself.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You mean, rapturing? lol



This is correct.. The Latin term for term CAUGHT UP is the root word for rapture.

Good one!