So, we have two distinct consciousnesses there. One is the other one's God. One talks to the other. One knows things the other one doesn't know. They have different desires (wills). One begat the other. One is the other's father, for crying out loud.
But we can't say they are two persons.
Natch.
Exactly, but what the typical everyday person means when they say "person" is exactly what you defined above.
When a oneness believer defines the word person they have to go against the everyday usage of the word person and that confuses alot of people.
In fact, in Prax's theology we would be better off referring to everything, you, me, Prax, President Obama, Jesus, God as beings. His word for being is exactly what most everyone else means when they say person.
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
So, we have two distinct consciousnesses there. One is the other one's God. One talks to the other. One knows things the other one doesn't know. They have different desires (wills). One begat the other. One is the other's father, for crying out loud.
But we can't say they are two persons.
Natch.
Person, Timmy, is distinguishable from Being and Nature. So each person has a Will.
God has a Divine Will. Jesus has a Divine will and a Human will.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Can you imagine the jaw drops from the congregation if the Pastor greets the congregation the same way Paul greets the churches?..
Im sure it would be odd in every church. I've been to Trinitarian churches and the Pastor does not grab a mic and say
Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and our brother Sosthenes,
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,
Who talks like that?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
So, we have two distinct consciousnesses there. One is the other one's God. One talks to the other. One knows things the other one doesn't know. They have different desires (wills). One begat the other. One is the other's father, for crying out loud.
But we can't say they are two persons.
Natch.
Why say two persons? The only reason you say two persons is because you are basing that on what humans can do as close as possible to this picture, and it takes two human persons to do that. We cannot manifest ourselves as another KIND of being, since we are humans and humans do not have that ability. But God is not a human being with our limitations. So why put something that would require two human persons to be able to remotely do into the picture, when it involves God as one of the two "somethings" here? When God is involved, all bets are off!
For crying out loud, Timmy, lol, we are talking about GOD BEING ONE of the two here. Not two human persons. Stop limiting God to what we can or cannot do in order to determine what happened in that case. Do you not think God could manifest Himself in limited manner as Jesus with limited awareness while at the same time being GOD upon whom that human manifestation MUST RELY?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Until oneness believers today begin regularly speaking like the above when talking about God and Jesus Christ then something is biblically amiss with their beliefs about God and Jesus Christ.
Hello jfrog,
In what way are Oneness beliefs "biblically amiss" by not employing the same language? Thanks.
In what way are Oneness beliefs "biblically amiss" by not employing the same language? Thanks.
The Oneness doctrine that Jesus is the only God is quite secure. But Oneness Christology often does not mirror things written by the Apostles, like the salutations. At least not the ones Im familiar with.
There is a small group of brothers (myself as one) at my church that uses such verbiage, either in greeting, or when we say good bye.
It's not all the time, or done arrogantly, as if to sound spiritual, but because we recognize these forms of address as Biblical, and so, seek to emulate them.
I have heard certain ministers back in th early 80s, use it in addressing the congregation.(Apostolic), They also greeted one another with a "holy kiss" right on the platform. I know its biblical, but wow. Cant do it. It only happened from certain ministers.
The Oneness doctrine that Jesus is the only God is quite secure. But Oneness Christology often does not mirror things written by the Apostles, like the salutations. At least not the ones Im familiar with.
Michael, I think these salutations are avoided and other "trini looking" passages so as to not stir up negative thinking and open up a can of worms during service.
Once the "Spirit" falls on an individual, they are much more teachable. Its wise to wait on God before crossing theological lines.
The Oneness doctrine that Jesus is the only God is quite secure. But Oneness Christology often does not mirror things written by the Apostles, like the salutations. At least not the ones Im familiar with.
Salutations are not Theology. They are greetings and benedictions.
I've never seen Jfrog nor any Trinitarian open every post with Paul's way of doing greetings and benedictions. I've never heard them do it while preaching...why? Because they are preaching or teaching, not giving a salutation.
I HAVE heard Oneness people routinely speak of father and Son in distinction though
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Why say two persons? The only reason you say two persons is because you are basing that on what humans can do as close as possible to this picture, and it takes two human persons to do that. We cannot manifest ourselves as another KIND of being, since we are humans and humans do not have that ability. But God is not a human being with our limitations. So why put something that would require two human persons to be able to remotely do into the picture, when it involves God as one of the two "somethings" here? When God is involved, all bets are off!
For crying out loud, Timmy, lol, we are talking about GOD BEING ONE of the two here. Not two human persons. Stop limiting God to what we can or cannot do in order to determine what happened in that case. Do you not think God could manifest Himself in limited manner as Jesus with limited awareness while at the same time being GOD upon whom that human manifestation MUST RELY?
Who says God can't be two (or three) persons? Who's limiting God?
Why don't you (Onesies and Trinnies) just agree that God isn't a person at all, not three persons and not one person?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Linear Mode
