I thought we were supposed to spread the Gospel, not democracy.
If Jesus wanted to conquer, he could have brought down a army of angels to kill anyone who opposed him.This was the same false assumption that the disciples originally had. They wanted a conquering King that would kill all of their enemies.
FTR, for the most part I agree with you. We shouldn't be trying to spread democracy to the Middle East. It's a colossal failure. It simply will never work. The US can spending all the money it has to try to spread democracy through financing rebels to overthrow dictators, blowing up terrorists, dropping pamphlets and airing radio and tv shows - it doesn't matter, it won't work.
These people have lived this way thousands of years and nothing we do will change that. Our interventions are only causing the people to be more angry with us. I used to believe what Bush spoke on spreading democracy. I don't anymore.
However, I still believe we should support and protect Israel. We are the only reason Iran, Syria or Egypt hasn't destroyed Israel.
Yeah the old spread democracy reason. All these reasons are used by pro- war people to make money. I use to believe just like you. Then my eyes were opened. I have been to the middle east. I have spoken to people from all over the world on this very subject. What you are fed by the media and government is 100% LIES!
Pentecostals use to believe in pacifism. There is a great thread on this subject on the forum.
D4life, you are the one who brought up spreading democracy. you brought it up as a strawman to knock down.
that aint the issue.
the issue here is that slate is telling a slanted truth to make Israel look bad because that is what they do because they hate Israel as all liberals and most liberatarians do.
spreading democracy has never been the reason for America to support Israel.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
FTR, for the most part I agree with you. We shouldn't be trying to spread democracy to the Middle East. It's a colossal failure. It simply will never work. The US can spending all the money it has to try to spread democracy through financing rebels to overthrow dictators, blowing up terrorists, dropping pamphlets and airing radio and tv shows - it doesn't matter, it won't work.
These people have lived this way thousands of years and nothing we do will change that. Our interventions are only causing the people to be more angry with us. I used to believe what Bush spoke on spreading democracy. I don't anymore.
However, I still believe we should support and protect Israel. We are the only reason Iran, Syria or Egypt hasn't destroyed Israel.
I know some people want to protect Israel. You might be right. I may be wrong. I give you that. I have been wrong before.
But we have never sent troops to help Israel fight their wars. Which other posters have repeated several times. Kinda seems like Israel is doing O.K. on their own.
My only point I would like to make is that we believe that Israel is still around because of something the U.S. has done. This is something that we have been told for decades so that we will continue to support Israel with finances and weapons.
Honestly I have been just giving my opinion but look how worked up everybody gets if you don't agree that we bend over backward to help Israel.
You said
"Second of all, America has a vested interest in stability in the middle east and Israel is the ONLY democracy in the area."
I did not mean to take your words out of context. You did not say anything about "spreading democracy". I apologize.
I do not hate Israel. I actually try to love everybody. I think we all do.
My only point is that many people believe Israel can do no wrong and that we should help them regardless of the circumstances.
I apologize if I misrepresented what I was trying to say.
You said
"Second of all, America has a vested interest in stability in the middle east and Israel is the ONLY democracy in the area."
I did not mean to take your words out of context. You did not say anything about "spreading democracy". I apologize.
I do not hate Israel. I actually try to love everybody. I think we all do.
My only point is that many people believe Israel can do no wrong and that we should help them regardless of the circumstances.
I apologize if I misrepresented what I was trying to say.
saying "only democracy in the area has nothing to do with spreading democracy.
these are very different things.
I beleive that Israel is a nation and therefore does things that are viewed as right and wrong based on their own national interest.
I see MANY who hate Israel because of actions they view negitivly without appling the context they are in to the situtation.
Does Israel act with a heavy hand at times? (bombing Syria's nuclear site a couple of years ago) Of course they do. But they are surrounded by nations that have a stated goal of distruction of Israel as a nation.
We support/help our ally because they are a democratic state, surrounded by nations that are tyranical and that seek their distruction. We assit them in maintianing thier existance because if we do not, they will cease to exist, at the hands of people who want nothing more than to distroy them and enslave the people that live there.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I was speaking of it happening in the future. Which is what some people want.
I am not going to get into an English debate. But I did not use the word "when".
I did not say "when we sent troops".
Okay. I misunderstood what was written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disciple4life
But we have sent them money and weapons. We have helped them. We are helping them right now.
True. We have given them a significant amount of weapons and money.
Quote:
Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date, the United States has provided Israel $118 billion (current, or non-inflation-adjusted, dollars) in bilateral assistance.
Quote:
In 2007, the Bush Administration and the Israeli government agreed to a 10-year, $30 billion military aid package spanning from Fiscal Year (FY) 2009 to Fiscal Year 2018.
Source Link
(Great in-depth report from the Congressional Research Service on US Foreign Aid to Israel")
Israel is getting $3.1 Billion for FY 2014
Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Israel all receive over a billion dollars in foreign aid.
Source Link
(When the map comes up, make sure you click the arrow next to "Filter Information by Fiscal Year: 2014" in order to obtain the most recent info. It initially loads with FY 2013 numbers, even though it shows as 2014.)
Interesting...
We also have $1.2 Billion in weapons stored for as an emergency US stockpile. If we're in a war and need quick access to arms and equipment, it's in Israel. Also, if Israel is in a war and needs additional arms or equipment, they can ask the US for permission to access the US stockpile.
If Israel were a nation of Muslims and was a stable democracy seeking to simply exist and build a first world life for its people, and were pressed on all sides by tyranical naitons seeking its distruction, I would say we are obligated to support them.
it would be in our own selfish nation intrest to do so.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
You mean like the former governments of Egypt, Libya, Iraq, and the current government of Syria?
No. A clue for you might have been my phrase "Arab mindset," in distinction to Israel's western-derived political ethic. (Makes sense since hundreds of thousands of future Israelis migrated from Europe between 1929-33.)
But okay, seems regrettable that the USA govt. decided to throw the Shaw of Iran (a secular muslim) under the bus. He had been educated in Switzerland (an interesting place to learn something about political tolerance,) and he supported recognition of Israel. No, I wasn't trying to teach a compare-and-contrast lesson about middle east politics, not that I could anyhow.
No. A clue for you might have been my phrase "Arab mindset," in distinction to Israel's western-derived political ethic. (Makes sense since hundreds of thousands of future Israelis migrated from Europe between 1929-33.)
But okay, seems regrettable that the USA govt. decided to throw the Shaw of Iran (a secular muslim) under the bus. He had been educated in Switzerland (an interesting place to learn something about political tolerance,) and he supported recognition of Israel. No, I wasn't trying to teach a compare-and-contrast lesson about middle east politics, not that I could anyhow.
Libya was a secular government. Gadaffi was gunnin for the Muslim Brotherhood and other 'radical Islamists'. Syria has a secular government. Iraq had a secular government. Of course such nations have an 'Arab mindset', just as the Israelis have an 'Israeli mindset' and Europeans have a European mindset.
We have been steadily overthrowing and overturning and eliminating secular Arab states, and what have they been replaced with? The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, radical Shia and Sunni jihadists, etc.
Interestingly, we love and support Saudi Arabia, the source of Wahabbism (radical jihadism), a completely Islamic religious state.
As for Israel being all for freedom, and all the Arabs being opposed to freedom (they hate us for our freedoms???), that is silly.
'Freedom' has lost its meaning worldwide. The 'West' is not much different than the old Iron Curtain these days, and any discrepancies are quickly being made up for.
Israel still practices a form of 'apartheid'. Remember when that was bad? SA anyone?
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