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03-23-2011, 05:52 PM
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite
I'll say it again, my actions did not, and do not save me, the Cross does.
I never said there are no actions. So let's not mince words.
The Spirit may not strap me to His back, but his quickening, empowering and life-giving nature within me does have some coercive implications against my human nature. Sanctification is not my work, it's God's.
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You have free will to reject it or accept its change. That is action. Choices are actions. Thats what my point is. No the cross didn't put you into christ's death. Baptism did. Christ died on the crossl but baptism puts you into Christ's death.
Christ died for your sins, repentance which is your action allowed your sins to be forgiven because of what he did. Our action is response to His work in us.
__________________
To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
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03-23-2011, 05:55 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite
Where do you see the fruit of the Spirit being taught in this way?
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Romans 8 tells us that if we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
That presents a choice to either follow the Spirit or follow the flesh
The works of the flesh are in total contrast to the fruit of the Spirit.
Love conquers hate
Patience conquers revellings
on and on we could go.
Both the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh are actions of some sort. We choose to follow which one after we are saved. That is our action.
If we don't follow the Spirit, Paul said we will die, for the flesh is enmity against God.
Before we are justified and born again, we are slaves to follow only one, the flesh.
__________________
To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
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03-23-2011, 06:02 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefaith2
You have free will to reject it or accept its change. That is action. Choices are actions. Thats what my point is. No the cross didn't put you into christ's death. Baptism did. Christ died on the crossl but baptism puts you into Christ's death.
Christ died for your sins, repentance which is your action allowed your sins to be forgiven because of what he did. Our action is response to His work in us.
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Is it by the Spirit that I believe? Or my own effort?
And believing or unbelieving isn't quite an "action."
The cross saved me, and I am fully alive in that, redeemed by that and accepted into that when I believe. My actions did not, will not, and will never save me. The moment I see them as such, it becomes nothing but an empty race of self-righteousness.
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03-23-2011, 06:05 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefaith2
Romans 8 tells us that if we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
That presents a choice to either follow the Spirit or follow the flesh
The works of the flesh are in total contrast to the fruit of the Spirit.
Love conquers hate
Patience conquers revellings
on and on we could go.
Both the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh are actions of some sort. We choose to follow which one after we are saved. That is our action.
If we don't follow the Spirit, Paul said we will die, for the flesh is enmity against God.
Before we are justified and born again, we are slaves to follow only one, the flesh.
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Actually Romans 8 is a perfect illustration of HOW we have good actions. When we walk "according to the Spirit." What does that mean exactly?
The good fruit that comes out of my life, is a result of being in unity and fully alive and believing in the work of the Cross. Gospel-centered and focused. Walking after the Spirit as opposed to "after the flesh" is not about doing good or bad things -- we've read enough Paul to know that. We also know, Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, he came to make dead people live. Therein is the meaning of this passage. The Spirit gives life. Out of that comes good fruit. The Spirit in us... the Cross active in me, faith fully confident and solely placed in Jesus.... the result is good works. Those works don't save me, they only testify to the work Jesus did, and is doing in me. Grace received, graciously lived.
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03-23-2011, 06:06 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,888
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Doesn't this mean one can lose salvation?
Rom 11:21
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
KJV
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
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03-23-2011, 06:07 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lexington KY
Posts: 4,343
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite
Is it by the Spirit that I believe? Or my own effort?
And believing or unbelieving isn't quite an "action."
The cross saved me, and I am fully alive in that, redeemed by that and accepted into that when I believe. My actions did not, will not, and will never save me. The moment I see them as such, it becomes nothing but an empty race of self-righteousness.
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lets move on Socialite. We are talking about walking after the Spirit to keep our filthy flesh at bay! Paul said If we do that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
So are you saying that if you take no action whatsoever, even walking after the Spirit, then although you fulfill the lusts of the flesh you are still okay because you believe in the cross?
Thats classic OSAS.
Believing is most certainly an action. Its not something you don't have to do. It doesn't just come naturally. You have to decide to do it. When did you consider choices to not be actions?
__________________
To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
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03-23-2011, 06:08 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefaith2
lets move on Socialite. We are talking about walking after the Spirit to keep our filthy flesh at bay! Paul said If we do that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
So are you saying that if you take no action whatsoever, even walking after the Spirit, then although you fulfill the lusts of the flesh you are still okay because you believe in the cross?
Thats classic OSAS.
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No, I'm not saying that
I'm saying a believing person will having believing people fruit. But it's important to be very clear that my fruit did save me. The hand that planted me did.
I'm borderline OSAS, btw. That's how firm I understand and believe God's grace -- and how much I esteem the cross. However, I'm definitely not a textbook OSAS, and I accept that somehow, someone wrecked by Grace can be a castaway. I think constant sin, which is habitual unbelief, becomes a life of unbelief -- and that's how it happens.
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03-23-2011, 06:09 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lexington KY
Posts: 4,343
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite
Actually Romans 8 is a perfect illustration of HOW we have good actions. When we walk "according to the Spirit." What does that mean exactly?
The good fruit that comes out of my life, is a result of being in unity and fully alive and believing in the work of the Cross. Gospel-centered and focused. Walking after the Spirit as opposed to "after the flesh" is not about doing good or bad things -- we've read enough Paul to know that. We also know, Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, he came to make dead people live. Therein is the meaning of this passage. The Spirit gives life. Out of that comes good fruit. The Spirit in us... the Cross active in me, faith fully confident and solely placed in Jesus.... the result is good works. Those works don't save me, they only testify to the work Jesus did, and is doing in me. Grace received, graciously lived.
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He most certainly came to made bad people good. He came to cleanse us from dead works so that we may serve the Living God. The Bible says as much.
__________________
To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
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03-23-2011, 06:11 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefaith2
He most certainly came to made bad people good. He came to cleanse us from dead works so that we may serve the Living God. The Bible says as much.
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No, OF2, that's called moralism.
He came to make dead people live. That was the ultimate goal. The problem with sin wasn't that we smoked cigarettes and watched dirty movies. The problem with sin is that we brought death onto ourselves, and so, we're living like dead people. He came to bring LIFE -- and LIFE more abundantly. He came to rescue us from death.
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03-23-2011, 06:13 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lexington KY
Posts: 4,343
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Re: If Salvation is a absolute free gift..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite
No, I'm not saying that
I'm saying a believing person will having believing people fruit. But it's important to be very clear that my fruit did save me. The hand that planted me did.
I'm borderline OSAS, btw. That's how firm I understand and believe God's grace -- and how much I esteem the cross. However, I'm definitely not a textbook OSAS, and I accept that somehow, someone wrecked by Grace can be a castaway. I think constant sin, which is habitual unbelief, becomes a life of unbelief -- and that's how it happens.
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If a believing person will have believing fruit, What do you say about a believing person who doesn't have believing fruit? Better yet what does God say?
The writer of Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 has some things to say.
Paul has some things to say that if we continue in sin after we are baptized, we make ourselves slaves to it.
Jesus has something to say that if the church of Laodicea didn't repent and turn away from their sin, he would remove them.
I'd say the Bible is clear what could happen to believers who don't have good fruit.
The writer said in the OT, When I fall, I shall arise! Believers have to get up from their mistakes and keep fighting, or else they will be overtaken with the flesh. That is action.
Thats why Paul said we must walk after the SPirit to not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
__________________
To be able to unite in difference carries more weight than all the opinions the universe can hold
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