Why did Lot offer his daughters who ...?? - Page 5

Socialite · #41 12-09-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

The law of of OT was given to show how sinful man was and how desperately he needed a redeemer and savior. Seems it was doing its purpose very well.

Fallen human nature is continually focused on evil as the references in this post reflect. Lot was simply living out the culture that devalued women. This was exceedingly sad, yet none the less very common, and not considered unusual in that context.

A father offering his daughter to be raped or killed was common? That women were certainly looked at as second-class people, they were nevertheless regarded in their homes. Reference how Debra's brothers defended her honor.

There were multiple sins going on here, including incest (lot's daughter slept with him and bare him children - Moab and Ammon).

If there were ever an example of Grace having some dimension of election, this is it. Lot is spared despite his falling short. Yes, God is faithful.

RandyWayne · #42 12-09-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

A father offering his daughter to be raped or killed was common? That women were certainly looked at as second-class people, they were nevertheless regarded in their homes. Reference how Debra's brothers defended her honor.

There were multiple sins going on here, including incest (lot's daughter slept with him and bare him children - Moab and Ammon).

If there were ever an example of Grace having some dimension of election, this is it. Lot is spared despite his falling short. Yes, God is faithful.

And yet in some churches your in danger of hell fire and brimstone if you dare miss a service.

I can hear some of these pastors discussing it among themselves, "But how will we keep the local congregation in line with these lessons of grace?", "Fear. Fear will keep them in line. Fear of this battle station, errrrr, I mean fear of this thing we call hell."

And somewhere, a dozen church members suddenly cried out in terror.... and then silence.

houston · #43 12-09-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

And yet in some churches your in danger of hell fire and brimstone if you dare miss a service.

I can hear some of these pastors discussing it among themselves, "But how will we keep the local congregation in line with these lessons of grace?", "Fear. Fear will keep them in line. Fear of this battle station, errrrr, I mean fear of this thing we call hell."

And somewhere, a dozen church members suddenly cried out in terror.... and then silence.

...used to miss sunday mornings frequently... then one day... I was called out for it!

Praxeas · #44 12-09-2010, 07:01 PM

How many daughters did Lot have?

Walks_in_islam · #45 12-09-2010, 08:53 PM

Not what the book says tho. In both cases the men who took Abraham's wife were punished yet it was never mentioned that Abraham himself was seen as wrong or called out by God for doing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinker

I would say act of a human man. That is made righteous through Gods daily mercy and grace.

Walks_in_islam · #46 12-09-2010, 09:02 PM

It says that there were 2 daughters in his house (unmarried) and that he left to warn his sons-in-law so there were an unknown number of daughters outside his house.

Either way, were these the acts of righteous men or do we define righteous differently from how God defines righteous?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

How many daughters did Lot have?

Thinker · #47 12-09-2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Not what the book says tho. In both cases the men who took Abraham's wife were punished yet it was never mentioned that Abraham himself was seen as wrong or called out by God for doing this.

What do you mean its not what the book says?

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. ~Romans 4

Praxeas · #48 12-10-2010, 12:24 AM

The bible says Lot vexed his righteous soul in being there and seeing and hearing their deeds. So if he was righteous before going there it seems the unrighteousness of the people were wearing off on him

Walks_in_islam · #49 12-10-2010, 07:49 AM

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Thank you. That is what I commented that "the book" aka "the scripture" said and to my relief it has been confirmed hundreds of years later all the way up until today can ya gimme amen.

SO: The original question. If belief in God and faithfulness to God in that belief is what God counts unto Him towards righteousness - whats with the rules of how you look and what you watch and what you listen to and what percentage you give and all the other things within the church that are "requirements" of church members compared with "what saith the scripture".

Just wonderin'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinker

What do you mean its not what the book says?

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. ~Romans 4

Aquila · #50 12-10-2010, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

had not known a man ...

Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

When he and the town folk knew they were married?

Genesis 19:14 8 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons-in-law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons-in-law.”

KJV ... did he LIE?

Unless you read the NIV which reads ...

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [a] his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

Or maybe they thought he was joking around the first time around also?

In ancient times betrothal was just as binding as the marriage itself. However, no coitus was to take place.