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09-09-2008, 01:22 PM
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without exception
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Highway of Holiness
Posts: 198
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
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Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
Hey, Straighline, how are you, my friend? Good to see you!
In response to your post, I couldn't disagree more. What about the Home Missions pastor who is working a full-time job, and taking no money from his small congregation? By your definition, if I understand correctly, he is a "no-time" minister. But, nothing could be further from the truth, and in my opinion, he has just as much, if not more, invested into the org.
What about the man who chooses to work a full-time job to assist another pastor who's congregation is only large enough to support one full time minister?
Maybe I misunderstood you, and if I did, please forgive me.
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MP - hello!
I spoke in context to the subject of this thread which is res. 4, which would change the qualifications. Which currently allows: Full-time ministry, All Pastors, full-time evangelists, full-time school administrators, All Full-time Missionaries, and certain elected officials. I was not trying to define, re-define or argue what "full-time" means; that is not the point of this thread.
This res. wants to make the vote of all ministers equal, though their voices are quite different: some represent congregations, some don't - some will have their livelihood affected by a group decision, some won't. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.....or unravels.
Bold or thin,
still a
Straightline
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09-09-2008, 01:25 PM
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Guest
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherEastman
I think the local conferences would follow in step with the National Conference as far as voting constincuency. Why should I pay almost $600.00 a year and not be allowed to make a difference in the General and Sectional Conferences?
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Because if not stacking can take place ... giving some pastors with many local ministers more power in their local areas ...
A Larry Booker ... now WWPF ... could have 15 ministers now voting to make him DS ... I life-long ambition I believe he had and would have capitalized on if he could have stacked votes.
Easty ... It's like our electoral college, bi-cameral legislature and other aspects of federalism in the secular political arena that provide checks and balances over the tyranny of the majority.
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09-09-2008, 01:32 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
Because if not stacking can take place ... giving some pastors with many local ministers more power in their local areas ...
A Larry Booker ... now WWPF ... could have 15 ministers now voting to make him DS ... I life-long ambition I believe he had and would have capitalized on if he could have stacked votes.
Easty ... It's like our electoral college, bi-cameral legislature and other aspects of federalism in the secular political arena that provide checks and balances over the tyranny of the majority.
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I thought all licensed ministers could vote now, how is this different?
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE....  My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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09-09-2008, 01:43 PM
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uncharismatic conservative maverick
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 5,356
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
For someone who is fearful of the new batch of young ministers and their thinking ... if CW wrote this resolution and it passes ... it could backfire ...
It would empower the entire constituency when voting on future national resolutions... and probably this entails mainly younger ministers who want to see a progressive agenda ...
Be careful what you ask for ....
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I think the younger ministers are already influenced by the older ministers, if the values are passed on to the younger ministers, then I wouldn't be so worried. I think that is the case here as well Dan, nothing to worry about.
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09-09-2008, 01:49 PM
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Rebel with a cause.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Posts: 6,813
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightline
MP - hello!
I spoke in context to the subject of this thread which is res. 4, which would change the qualifications. Which currently allows: Full-time ministry, All Pastors, full-time evangelists, full-time school administrators, All Full-time Missionaries, and certain elected officials. I was not trying to define, re-define or argue what "full-time" means; that is not the point of this thread.
This res. wants to make the vote of all ministers equal, though their voices are quite different: some represent congregations, some don't - some will have their livelihood affected by a group decision, some won't. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.....or unravels.
Bold or thin,
still a
Straightline
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Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification!
__________________
"Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
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09-09-2008, 01:51 PM
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Rebel with a cause.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Posts: 6,813
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
I thought all licensed ministers could vote now, how is this different?
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All licensed ministers cannot vote as it stands.
If memory serves, all full-time ministers can vote, and each church can designate one minister to vote who does not derive his income from the ministry, but has a letter from the pastor stating that he is involved in the ministry.
__________________
"Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
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09-09-2008, 01:53 PM
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uncharismatic conservative maverick
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 5,356
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightline
It has little to do with young ministers versus old ministers.
The change is in giving part-time and no-time ministers an equal voice with those in full-time ministry. Full-time ministry has more vested in the org., and is more greatly affected by decisions made on a national level than the others. A Pastors vote respresents a whole congregation, whereas the local licensed minister that only preaches on occassion only represents himself.
This will probably pass, and will do more to disintegrate the cohesion of the UPCI than just about any other resolution.
If you must read between the lines,
do so in a
Straightline
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But even the part time ministers who are influenced by their full time pastors will be inclined to vote in such ways that are instilled by the older ministers. So why is this an issue? I do not get paid by my church, but I still pay the same dues that others pay. Why should I be penalized for not having a full time ministry? I sacrifice to not only care enough about this organization with my dues, but almost to the point where I have to study and pray to minister in different ways that lead up to a pulpit ministry. Are you trying to suggest that part time ministers do not put in the necessary sacrifices for their voice to be heard?
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09-09-2008, 02:01 PM
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uncharismatic conservative maverick
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 5,356
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
Because if not stacking can take place ... giving some pastors with many local ministers more power in their local areas ...
A Larry Booker ... now WWPF ... could have 15 ministers now voting to make him DS ... I life-long ambition I believe he had and would have capitalized on if he could have stacked votes.
Easty ... It's like our electoral college, bi-cameral legislature and other aspects of federalism in the secular political arena that provide checks and balances over the tyranny of the majority.
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But Dan, that's only fifteen votes out of a large population of ministers that may or may not agree with the fifteen. If the majority agree with the fifteen, then I do not see how that would change anything; likewise, if the majority does not agree, the fifteen votes won't matter anyway. ( I hope that makes sense to you)
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09-09-2008, 02:03 PM
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Rebel with a cause.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Posts: 6,813
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherEastman
But Dan, that's only fifteen votes out of a large population of ministers that may or may not agree with the fifteen. If the majority agree with the fifteen, then I do not see how that would change anything; likewise, if the majority does not agree, the fifteen votes won't matter anyway. ( I hope that makes sense to you)
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Agreed, BE. There are far more churches in the organization with only one or two ministers voting than 15-20.
__________________
"Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
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09-09-2008, 02:07 PM
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without exception
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Highway of Holiness
Posts: 198
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Re: New Resolution: All local ministers right to v
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherEastman
But even the part time ministers who are influenced by their full time pastors will be inclined to vote in such ways that are instilled by the older ministers. So why is this an issue? I do not get paid by my church, but I still pay the same dues that others pay. Why should I be penalized for not having a full time ministry? I sacrifice to not only care enough about this organization with my dues, but almost to the point where I have to study and pray to minister in different ways that lead up to a pulpit ministry. Are you trying to suggest that part time ministers do not put in the necessary sacrifices for their voice to be heard?
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BE: MP is correct in his last post; you could vote if you had a letter from your pastor.
Most of my posting is to be explanatory of the current system, which is a Pastoral system. Maybe we ought to just waive the dues of all ministers that are ineligible to vote - that would make more sense.
Heading stage right
in a
Straightline
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