Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

One thing I learned recently is that in order to keep people's attention, a tv program will change the camera view point every 9 seconds or so. Why do they do this even though it is taking place in the same scene? To make it more interesting. They found out that to make it more interesting to the eyes, they change the tv camere angle often. One result of this is that some children are used to having the lust of their eyes fulfilled by frequently changing the camera angle to maintain their interest. Then they go to school and just see the same old viewpoint, minute after minute. No wonder teachers have a problem keeping some kids attention.

Have you ever watched a BOTT video? They do the same thing!!!! LOL!

It breaks up the monotony, but has nothing to do with 'lust of the eyes'. It's just a different angle. We aren't there in person to see the entire picture like being in a service in person, so filming from different angles gives you a better idea of the setup.

Teachers have no more of a problem keeping kids' attention in schools today than they had 100 years ago. It has nothing to do with TV, but with parents. 100 years ago, your daddy would wear you out. Today, daddies don't touch their kids, if there is even a daddy around. TV isn't to blame. Parents are.

Blaming TV for the problems in society is akin to blaming guns for promoting violence. Guns don't kill people. People kill people and some use guns to do it.

It's the same with TV (as it is with internet or any other form of media or entertainment). It's not TV that is making our kids stupider and uncontrollable. It's the lack of control on the hands of the parents that is the problem today.

Now I done went off on a tangent....LOL!

[SOUNWORTHY]

HO you are correct. I started teaching about 40 years ago and the kids were the same then as they are now. I never had problems with kids, I had problems with parents. The kids who respected their parents, respected me. Oh, for the good old days when the parents could and would yield the paddle, and teachers dressed like teachers and acted like Profellionals.

[tv1a]

The same people who believe changing a camera angle every nine seconds encourages lustful tendancies are problabbly the same people who think one will do drugs while listening to the Beatles played backwards.

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Have you ever watched a BOTT video? They do the same thing!!!! LOL!

It breaks up the monotony, but has nothing to do with 'lust of the eyes'. It's just a different angle. We aren't there in person to see the entire picture like being in a service in person, so filming from different angles gives you a better idea of the setup.

Teachers have no more of a problem keeping kids' attention in schools today than they had 100 years ago. It has nothing to do with TV, but with parents. 100 years ago, your daddy would wear you out. Today, daddies don't touch their kids, if there is even a daddy around. TV isn't to blame. Parents are.

Blaming TV for the problems in society is akin to blaming guns for promoting violence. Guns don't kill people. People kill people and some use guns to do it.

It's the same with TV (as it is with internet or any other form of media or entertainment). It's not TV that is making our kids stupider and uncontrollable. It's the lack of control on the hands of the parents that is the problem today.

Now I done went off on a tangent....LOL!

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

I know what you are saying but the UPCI is not a police organization. It would be impossible to keep track of what each and every minister is doing. If the minister signs and then doesn't obey it is between he and God. Personally, I'd like to see the TV thing eliminated from the UPC manual. Although I don't want to see UPC churches on TV. TV evangelists and TV churches have left a bad taste in the mouths of people. I think it is OK to advertise but not have live church programs.

I have a TV and am licensed but with another organization. As far as I know none of our churches are on TV either but we don't teach against TV but do teach about what we should watch on TV. When I was licensed with UPC I forgot about the TV thing and did renew. It was an oversight and I dropped my membership. Our UPC church did not harp on TV. Our pastor said he wished the people didn't have them but he didn't think it was a heaven or hell issue. I have always felt that if I couldn't watch a program because I would be uncomfortable with my daughters or grandchildren sitting next to me then I shouldn't watch it either. Or if I would feel uncomfortable having that person in my living room using the language he is using or doing the things he was doing then I need to hit the off or change channel button.

Probably the wildest program I watch is Monk or Matlock!!

I know what you are saying but the UPCI is not a police organization. It would be impossible to keep track of what each and every minister is doing. If the minister signs and then doesn't obey it is between he and God.


This sounds like the same argument that a Pastor never needs to enforce church discipline and/or to never reprove nor rebuke church members. The simple fact of the matter is that church leadership has a responsibility from the word of God to reprove and rebuke. If they don't take action then they are not fulfilling their god-given responsibility. Will it only affect them? No because a little leaven, leavens the whole lump. Consider Achan in the valley of Achor. Because of of 1 man's disobedience, thousands of innocent, obedient men of God lost their lives on the front lines to their enemies. But because the leader was a man chosen of God who was fulfilling his responsibilities and not rebelling in disobedience to his elders, he sought God and God revealed the root cause of the problem and it was removed. Afterwards, God's people had victory over their enemies. Compromise causes a church to lose its power and the enemy to gain victory over them. A little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

Our pastor said he wished the people didn't have them but he didn't think it was a heaven or hell issue.

So instead of being obedient to his elders above him, he decided to make light of the issue. I wonder how a Pastor would feel if that is what his flock started doing to him?

Even though decision that the elders made was accompanied by tongues and interpretation from God basically backing the decision.

Kinda reminds me of Jesus telling his apostles/disciples in Matt 18 that whatsoever they bind on earth, He would bind in heaven, and whatsoever they loose on earth, He would loose in heaven.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Seemed good to the HOly Ghost and to us; God somehow, it doesn't say how, but somehow indicated that He backed the decision made by men.

God bless.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

I know what you are saying but the UPCI is not a police organization. It would be impossible to keep track of what each and every minister is doing. If the minister signs and then doesn't obey it is between he and God.


This sounds like the same argument that a Pastor never needs to enforce church discipline and/or to never reprove nor rebuke church members.

Our pastor said he wished the people didn't have them but he didn't think it was a heaven or hell issue.

So instead of being obedient to his elders above him, he decided to make light of the issue. I wonder how a Pastor would feel if that is what his flock started doing to him?

.

Old paths, it would be interesting to know where you are from. I dislike the words, enforce, and rebuke. If it is taught, the true saint will line up, if he doesn't rebuking and enforcement won't work either. Years ago I attended the _____ church in _______ and there was a lot of enforcing and rebuking there and in too many cases it only left fear and anger but did not make stronger saints. It is teaching in a loving manner that produces strong saints. It is not done through threats and intimidating people. By the way, I do attend two UPC churches in different states, both have strong fantastic pastors.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Old paths, it would be interesting to know where you are from. I dislike the words, enforce, and rebuke. If it is taught, the true saint will line up, if he doesn't rebuking and enforcement won't work either. Years ago I attended the _____ church in _______ and there was a lot of enforcing and rebuking there and in too many cases it only left fear and anger but did not make stronger saints. It is teaching in a loving manner that produces strong saints. It is not done through threats and intimidating people. By the way, I do attend two UPC churches in different states, both have strong fantastic pastors.

I dislike the words, enforce, and rebuke.

Then I suppose you dislike a lot of scriptures in proverbs and in the NT that contain words like reprove, rebuke, etc.

if he doesn't rebuking and enforcement won't work either.

1 Cor 5 is an example of church discipline that escalated up pretty high. According to 2 Cor 2, it appears that the discipline worked.

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Why did Paul exercise discipline on these 2 if he know it wouldn't work? He did it so that they would learn a lesson.

Correction has a purpose and its NOT to show how much power/authority a person has; if that's your motive, then I contend that you should NOT be in leadership.

It is teaching in a loving manner that produces strong saints.

I agree that correction should start off with love and the spirit of meekness.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

However, if after correcting someone in a loving manner and giving them space to repent (Rev 2:21), if they still haven't repented, then I believe the scriptures show that correction can be escalated.

Jesus:

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Paul:

1Co 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1Co 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

Rod = correction

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Paul wrote about about restoring in the spirit of meekness, but he also wrote about coming with a rod and bewailing those who had sinned and not repented.

I've used this analogy before on this site...

Its like a loving mother who sees her little boy with a fork going in the direction of an electrical outlet but is still far away. She tells him with loving concern to not go to the outlet. When she sees that the boy did not listen to her and continues, she raises her voice and gets a little firmer with the little boy. Finally, when she sees that he still hasn't heeded, she gets up smacks the boys hand.

Now why did she do this? Because she loved the little boy and saw that he was going to get hurt if he continued. Did the attempted correction escalate? Yes it did, for HIS sake.

The pastor is the watchman, looking for trouble and when he sees trouble, he sounds the alarm. He is also the shepherd with a rod and a staff. What is the purpose function of the rod? Correction.

I've heard it told that some shepherds when they have a sheep that has a tendency to wander away from the flock, will sometimes purposely break the leg of the sheep, then bind it up, and carry the sheep on its shoulders, until the leg heals and the sheep is able to walk on its own.

Now I can't speak to the church that you were going to where lots of rebuking was going on. Have some UPC men been given license's who should NOT have been given licenses? One district super in Apostolic Man has confessed to giving licenses to men that afterwards he confessed he shouldn`t have. Do I think that problems are caused when a man has been given a license who should NOT have been given a license and so he thinks he is called to Pastor? I certainly do. Do I think every person who graduates from an "Apostolic" Bible College is called to be a Pastor? Nope. Have some "Pastor's" abused their power/authority? Perhaps.

In any event, we have the word of God which shows us that the ministry does have a responsibility to reprove, rebuke, correct with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Why 2 different UPC churches? Are you still attending the UPC church where God planted you?

I attend a WPF church with a Pastor whose UPC license will expire sometime this year with no intention of renewing it. He was the district super of his district as well.

I am still attending the church where God planted me.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I agree with what you say here, but that's not what you alluded to. I don't believe God is going to give a T&I to a church who's eldership made a decision based on opinions and personal preferences and use the T&I to prove that all should abide by them.

If I came to you, telling you that God gave a T&I in my church about the evils of internet in the same manner you claim He did with TV, would you get rid of internet? I seriously doubt it, and I wouldn't blame you. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that you would even doubt my story.

The ALJC isn't a 'loose' church organization. They are filled with the same spirit that you are filled with whether you want to admit it or not. That being the case, one has to wonder why God will give the UPC a T&I against the evils of TV but not enlighten the ALJC about the same issue.

Personally, I believe God has more important messages to deliver, like how the hearts of men should be clean and washed daily.

I don't believe God is going to give a T&I to a church who's eldership made a decision based on opinions and personal preferences and use the T&I to prove that all should abide by them

God did give tongues and interpretation. Did the leadership in Acts write about the decision that MEN came up with seeming good unto the HOly Ghost - yes they did. Why did they even bother writing that the decision seemed good unto God and didn't just say that the leadership made a decision and they were to abide by it? Obviously to add weight to the decision.

I'm not aware of any T&I regarding getting rid of the internet.

Incidentally, Brother Larry Booker preached a 3 hour message to the General Board of the UPC explaining the difference b/n TV and the internet. Wish I could have been there.

Now concerning someone claiming to be speaking by the Spirit of God - this reminded me of a story in the bible. It can be found in 1 King 22 and 2 Chronicles 8. The context of the story was the king of judah visiting the king of israel. Historical background - Israel was split into 2 kingdoms after one person rebelled the god-given authority over him and set up his own kingdom in his own way, changed God's true religion into his own way, and changed God's true priesthood into his own way. One way that he appealed to his subjects NOT going to where God had ordained that His people should worship at Jerusalem was...

1Ki 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Its too much - its too hard! What the Lord had ordained, Jeroboam told them that it was too hard. Appealing to the lazy flesh of man.

What else did Jeroboam do? He cast out those who were God's chosen priests from being priests in the split kingdom of Israel.

But in spite of this rebellion from God's authority, religion, and priests, the bible records this...

2Ch 11:13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.
2Ch 11:14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
2Ch 11:15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
2Ch 11:16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

In spite of the rebellion, the Levites and all those who set their hearts to seek the LORD God came to Jerusalem. They knew what God had set up and the right way that God had ordained to do things and followed it. Unfortunately, not everyone came to Jerusalem, but remained under the leadership of the man who rebelled against God's authority.

But one day, the ruler of Judah came to the ruler of Israel to visit and the ruler of Israel asked the ruler of Judah if he would join him in a battle. And of course the King of Judah asked to inquire of the LORD first. So the King of Israel, gathered 400 of his prophets who all prophesied that the LORD would give them victory. The King of Judah inquired if there were yet a prophet of the LORD. The King of Israel said there was but that he hated him because he always spoke evil of him. Well what do you expect from a kingdom that was started out of rebellion against the God-given authority over him?

To make a long story short, the 1 prophet of the LORD said that the King would die. So it was 400 prophets all prophesying 1 way and only 1 prophet of the LORD prophesying the other way. As the story goes, the 1 prophet of the LORD was right and the 400 prophets were wrong!

Now I'm not familiar with the ALJC or its history - is there a page somewhere that shows its history/origins? Some questions that come to my mind is - have the leadership ever sincerely fasted and sought God on the issue? In the UPC the T&I was given in response to the leadership seeking the will of God on this issue.

Like i've stated before, i was charismatic before in false doctrine and there was t&i and prophecies and I've been in a strong UPC/WPF church with t&i and prophecies; and then there is EVERY CHURCH IN BETWEEN.

And yes there are more important messages - especially for sinners who have never been born again before. What they need first is to get born again. Holiness imho falls into that category of Jesus saying that he had many more things to say but they couldn't BEAR IT until after they got the Holy Ghost. Some things cannot be borne until a person gets the Holy Ghost. You don't clean a fish until you catch it. Trying to obey all of the NT without the born again of the water and the Spirit is a frustrating experience.

Those who ARE born again and have been living for God for a long time - to whom much is given, much is required. If one gets dirt in their hearts from whatever, then for sure they are going to have to wash and clean their hearts.

[Cindy]

Really appreciate your posts here OP.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Have you ever watched a BOTT video? They do the same thing!!!! LOL!

It breaks up the monotony, but has nothing to do with 'lust of the eyes'. It's just a different angle. We aren't there in person to see the entire picture like being in a service in person, so filming from different angles gives you a better idea of the setup.

Teachers have no more of a problem keeping kids' attention in schools today than they had 100 years ago. It has nothing to do with TV, but with parents. 100 years ago, your daddy would wear you out. Today, daddies don't touch their kids, if there is even a daddy around. TV isn't to blame. Parents are.

Blaming TV for the problems in society is akin to blaming guns for promoting violence. Guns don't kill people. People kill people and some use guns to do it.

It's the same with TV (as it is with internet or any other form of media or entertainment). It's not TV that is making our kids stupider and uncontrollable. It's the lack of control on the hands of the parents that is the problem today.

Now I done went off on a tangent....LOL!

Not really sure what a BOTT video is.

I wonder why the parents aren't able to fulfill their responsibilities to their children?

Here are some interesting stat's concerning tv and children just in the U.S. ...

TV and Children

81% of children ages 2-7 watch TV alone and unsupervised

70% of day care centers use TV during a typical day

54% of 4-6 year-olds who, when asked to choose between watching TV and spending time with their fathers, said they would prefer to watch television

It has been shown that children who watch TV more than 10 hours a week suffer negative academic effects

The average American child ages 2-11 watches television 20 hours a week

TV and Violence

By age 18, the average American child sees 200,000 violent acts on TV.

By age 18, children witnesses almost 20,000 murders on TV — most by handguns.

73% of the time the people in TV dramas who commit violent acts go unpunished.

47% percent of violent situations show no real harm to the victims, and 58 percent show no real pain.

Only 4 percent of violent programs show nonviolent alternatives to solve programs.

80% of Hollywood executives think there is a link between TV violence and real-life violence.

TV and Obesity

During Saturday morning cartoons there are typically more than 200 "junk-food" commercials.

At least 12 medical studies link excessive television watching to increasing rates of obesity.

In 1963, 4.5% of children ages 6 to 11 were seriously overweight; by 2001, this percentage had more than tripled.

Concerning TV and the impact on kids at school and reading...The Impact of Television: A Natural Experiment in Three Communities...http://world.std.com/~jlr/comment/tv_impact.htm

Another interesting link - ELECTRONIC HEROIN - http://dieoff.org/page21.htm

So why don't parents fulfill their responsibility to their kids? Are they under the same spell? Do they not want to be hypocrites forbidding their children to watch and do the same things they do? And even if they do, will they always be around to watch them?

Some things to think about.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by tv1a

The same people who believe changing a camera angle every nine seconds encourages lustful tendancies are problabbly the same people who think one will do drugs while listening to the Beatles played backwards.

TV's are addictive and networks will do anything to keep you glued to their networks.

The world is no friend of the church. In fact...

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.